The Association of MBAs' international accreditation service?

This is a bit off-topic, but it does have to do with MBA's and certification. If you want a legit deal on some $10 - per (!) MBA credits , have a look here. Fall Special!

I think the $80 for 8 credits deal is only for students of W.H. Taft University (DETC). Dr. Lady is the real deal - no scam here. Before his present post at AIMS, he was Pres. of Aspen University. Prior to that, IIRC, he held an important post with DETC. He's well-known in this forum - there may be a thread on this $80 deal.

No mills here - certification, degree or otherwise. So nobody can complain I don't like a school "just because it's cheap." I LIKE cheap schools - they just have to be "real."

Johann

 

Let's face it, there is only one real difference between the COSC/GRE scenario and the WGU/CMBA scenario: if you got a high score on the CMBA exam, you got a fancy-sounding title ("Certified MBA"). You don't get any title from the GRE exam, no matter how highly you score.

And that's what you don't like: the title. Suppose there was no title involved, and the CMBA exam was used by legit schools as a sort of CLEP exam for evaluating knowledge of the MBA curriculum, and awarding credit as appropriate. You wouldn't object. Right?

And that's pretty much how WGU used it (although they did include the title as a "bonus"). In fact, ICI did not require an MBA "degree in hand" to take the CMBA exam. You only had to be enrolled in an MBA program (although in this case, your CMBA was "conditional" pending graduation).

And in fact, since the CMBA title has obviously not taken off, ICI may be trying revise the CMBA exam in that direction. They have announced the "Graduate Business Assessment of Knowledge Exam (GBAK) exam: "Testing cognitive skill and knowledge in the ten MBA core curriculum subject areas, the GBAK Exam is a universal assessment of business knowledge taught at the graduate level."

And an exam like this would seem to make perfect sense for a school like WGU, which would like to issue competency-based MBAs. In order to test competency, you need tests, right?

Perhaps you are missing the point of standardized, competency-based testing. The idea is to put everyone on the same footing, regardless of school. You don't get extra points on the GRE for a Harvard degree, and you don't get penalized for studying at AMBAI. If you get the same passing score on the same test, you get the same "seal of approval".

Everyone who passes the California Bar exam gets the same "seal of approval", regardless of whether their law school was ABA-approved, CalBar-approved, unaccredited but CalBar-registered, or non-existent (which is possible with the right work experience). And the disparities in law school pricing are just great as those in MBA pricing.

I've heard that AMBAI did get in trouble for issuing degrees without a license. But what legal objection could apply to ICI? They were simply offering a voluntary testing service, and issuing certificates (not degrees) to people that passed. That's perfectly legal.

 

No - I wouldn't object. But there WAS a "title" involved - and you're right, I don't like that at all. And thanks for the info (conditional award of CMBA). I didn't know that.

Good for them. I wish 'em better luck with it. Certainly quashes my objection, doesn't it?

We sure do. Everybody should have the chance -- without "titles." I guess ICI might have had some backlash and that's why it's changing. All applicants get equal chance and if they succeed, they get the same reward. PERFECT as long as the individual who went to a questionable school gets something to prove his/her smarts - but his/her "degree" doesn't appear to get jumped-up five classes.

I don't mind the PERSON being on the same footing -- though I'm not absolutely sure of intent, in the case of ALL people with milled-or-horrible degrees. (I'm 100% OK with no degree whatsoever - honesty rules!). The old way, GOOD and demonstrably BAD degrees, rather than people were on the same footing, or at least that's the way it appeared to me. The new way (proposed)? No problem.

All true, CalDog. No argument here.

Let's hope the "new wave" of ICI business Skills testing is less controversial than the old. If you look through the "press" on the CMBA - you'll find plenty of people who objected to it -- not necessarily for the reasons I did. And just one more very small point -- as you say, the cost of law-school does indeed vary widely -- but I never heard of anything CalBar registered that was sub-$500. Not even Sub-$5,000. Little joke - not important. :jester:

Yes, what ICI did was legal, I guess -- but what AMBAI was doing...? I dunno. Did the ICI/AMBAI combo look good (to me)? No - especially the way AMBAI made hay of it in their ads. 'Nuff said. Everything's changing, for the better, it looks.

You certainly made your points, CalDog -and made huge and much-needed dints in my former "blanket" objection.

Hopefully, the new deal will go well for everyone. I still believe in WGU's competency-testing approach. This has never been any issue (to me) before the CMBA. Tech certifications (Microsoft, Cisco etc.) were just that. Yes - WGU students got academic credit for them, because the certificate represented a person's acquired skill and knowledge. It wasn't strictly about adding "class" or "brand" to his/her degree although certainly those valuable qualifications also did that.

Add-on "class & brand for your degree by validation" was a good part - or all - of what I perceived ICI (and particularly AMBAI) to be "selling" - the magic potion that made "bad" degrees into "good" ones.

Thanks again.

Johann

 

Just thought of a real quandary here:

What if the "Certified MBA" holder's degree was from an unacceptable school - on a State list, illegal for use in a certain State, etc? Surely the unacceptable degree doesn't suddenly become acceptable via "Certification?" So how could the holder (legally) claim to be (or possess) a "certified MBA" -if his/her "degree" alone doesn't pass muster?

Useless degree + certification = certified useless degree, right? Anybody tell the "Ambai" CMBA's? :jester:

Yeah -- agreed again. I think they're wise to get rid of the "title" aspect....

Johann

 

The CMBA certification was a privately issued credential with no legal significance. It does nothing to change the legal status of a given degree, and I don't think that ICI has ever suggested otherwise.

You could make that argument. But in that case, the holder could still legally claim to have passed the CMBA exam.

This would also apply to a student from a legitimate MBA program who passed the CMBA exam before graduating. He would not have an MBA degree, or the CMBA certification. Yet if he was to start applying for jobs before graduation, then he could still legally claim to have passed the CMBA exam on his resume.

There are JD degrees issued in California that are completely unacceptable by Oregon standards -- not only do they lack ABA accreditation, they lack RA or NA as well. Since these degrees have no form of USDoE-recognized accreditation, you couldn't legally advertise them in Oregon, even with a disclaimer. But suppose you passed the California Bar exam with a degree like this (which does happen). Oregon could prevent you from advertising your unaccredited JD degree, but they can't prevent you from stating (truthfully) that you have passed the (wholly legitimate) California Bar exam.

 

So now you also have OAM offering CMBA and CDBA.
They are listed on the BIM list as professional and Supporting body just like CMBA by AMBA.

http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/higher-education/access-to-professions/professional-bodies

So Oxford Association of Management can do what AMBA does?

http://www.oxim.org/

 

No, I suppose not - legal status, anyway -- but as I see it, AMBAI came pretty close - and a holder could easily step over the line, knowingly or not.

True, but that's kind of a "workaround" argument. I'll buy the pre-grad scenario - it COULD happen and that's OK. The holder of a dubious degree -far less likely to be so scrupulous. There are honest people, CalDog - but your argument only holds if everybody is. Where something is prone to mis-use, that is exactly what will happen.

No, I guess they can't. What the State Bar can do is not admit that California lawyer to the practice of law in their State. That's the important thing here.

(1) Yes - you can say you passed the exam
(2) Agreed - the law degree has no accreditation
(3) Right - you can't advertise the degree
(4) Most Important thing - your CalBar-registered JD doesn't meet Oregon's requirements - so it won't qualify you to practise law in that State (Oregon).

I've agreed with you that:

(1) The best thing for ICI is to certify the person and stay away from any suggestion of "degree enhancement." (And as I see it, that suggestion WAS there, the first time 'round. Maybe you still feel I'm wrong on that - you're entitled.)

(2) Professional certifications have value. They attest to the skills and knowledge of the holders. As long as the person is certified, and there is no suggestion of a "certified degree", they are a good thing. Granting academic credit for them? Also a good thing - very good, as practiced by WGU and other fine schools. Numerous IT awards get people credit at the Big 3. Nothing wrong with a business cert. that will do the same.

But that's as far as I'll go. The "hypotheticals" don't work for me - as not everybody is honest and exploitation will occur. On the other hand, if a less-than-scrupulous school simply wants its degrees adorned - they might as well order up a bunch of apostilles.

Well, we're in at least partial agreement, CalDog, and I hope we're still friends - but I can go no further, on this issue. I hope the new approach works, both for ICI and the schools.

Johann

 

To be honest, I don't perceive the CMBA as a necessary or worthwhile credential either. MBAs who seek to maximize the value of their degrees should be looking at AACSB, rather than CMBA.

But I don't perceive the CMBA as a "mill" credential either. There is ample precedent for post-graduation certification of professional degrees, so the concept itself is not inherently unreasonable. Furthermore, the CMBA was apparently a "real" exam -- certainly the fully legit WGU thought so.

The only meaningful objection that you've advanced is that ICI "certified" questionable MBA degrees. That may have been an unfortunate decision, but just how "prone to misuse" was it? The CMBA Directory appears to include more than 750 names -- including a grand total of four AMBAI grads. You can double-check my math, but it appears that around 99.5% of "Certified MBAs" were legit degrees.

Suppose ICI tightened the eligibility standards slightly -- maybe restricting certification to RA, NA, or foreign equivalent MBAs. Would you have any remaining objections ? Granted, the certification might still be unnecessary and not worthwhile -- but that's for the market to decide.

 

Lerner - have a look at this re: Oxford Association of Management

Hi Lerner -

Just wanted to let you know - doubts have been cast on the validity of Oxford Association of Management in this forum and elsewhere:

http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learning-discussions/24231-oxford-association-management.html

One salient quote:

"Oxim is closely connected with Irish International University and is accredited by QAC-UK Ltd. As to Irish International University, you may search through degreeinfo.com website where plenty of discussions were made before."

Similar to comments about the Holy Roman Empire, I feel it is arguable that IIU is neither Irish, International, nor a University.

EDUCON: DALC SCAM: OXFORD ASSOCIATION OF MANAGEMENT DOES NOT EXIST

The above link gives the registration background of OXIM. What is made clear is that

(1) The org. has nothing to do with Oxford University and
(2) It appears to have names for its various approvers and subsidiaries that are VERY SIMILAR to known legit bodies.

Here is a link that has OXIM info: The thoroughly unaccredited American University of London: http://www.americanuniversity.org.uk/faculty/

From that page:

"Dr. Robert Ray Hill, DBA
Oxford Association of Management
Business Administration -USA"

Dr. Dr. Hill is well-known to DL fora as a purveyor of many, many unaccredited DL opportunities from several countries - including Russia (IUFS - he is/was a VP of WIDU) and most recently, Panama. Perhaps you've read him as RayRay1212, TruePatriot or... :jester:

 

Lerner - more "bad press" for Oxford Association of Management.

See it here:

International Non Traditional Higher Education: Information resources concerning unaccredited degree-granting institutions (2)

It's a very long page and the excerpt dates from 2008. I've highlighted some interesting parts. Here's a quote:

"It is now emerging that parents, guardians and self-sponsored students in Kenya could be losing millions of shillings in fees and other charges in the belief that they would get certificates from two famous UK universities — Cambridge and Oxford — through a correspondent relationship with the Digital Advisory Learning Centre (DALC).

The centre, which has eight campuses across the country with a high concentration in Nairobi, claims to offer diploma and degree certification from the two universities but the reality is different.

DALC collaborates with two institutions in the UK — Cambridge Association of Managers and Oxford Association of Management — which run two separate colleges offering management courses but which have no working relationship with either Cambridge or Oxford Universities.

The colleges are accredited by Quality Assurance Commission Limited owned by a Malaysian businessman and which is not recognised by UK education authorities. "There are two accreditation bodies in the UK and QAC is not one of them," Mr David Higgs, the head of British Council in Kenya told The Business Daily. Accreditation bodies in the UK fall under two categories, public and private.

Private colleges are admitted through the British Accreditation Council and Accreditation Service of Independent Colleges. Mr Hicks said QAC is registered as a limited company.

DALC shares the accreditation body with Irish International University (IIU), which has been locked in a scandal since investigations by the BBC found that it had issued fake degrees and diplomas to more than 5,000 international students in the last seven years."

Kinda says it all for me. Don't think I'd want 'em certifying my MBA - good or bad - assuming I held one - and I don't. Hmm - suppose they could sell me one? :jester:

Johann

 

Quality Assurance Commission - not recognized.

QAC - If it walks like a duck, QACs like a duck.... :jester:

Johann

 

No - no objections whatsoever. And yes, you're right (again) 99.5% of the degrees certified were legit. As I see it, certifying ONE "bad apple" has the potential to diminish the shine of MANY legitimate degrees. Close the loophole and you prevent the problem.

On the other hand, if you want to certify the ABILITY of "all comers" including those with unaccredited, questionable or NO degrees, then award a certificate that doesn't have a degree- or degree-like title in its name. Maybe a professional designation.

There are some well-regarded professional business/management organizations that do this. Usually, you take their courses, but a degree or formal coursework will afford exemptions. I'd have no problem with a setup like this either, if it awarded a (non-degree) designation based on a suitable test.

Cheers!

Johann

 

Johann,
Yes it rings the bell now.

Maybe UK Government BIS should screen their professional and supporting bodies list.
AMBA is listed with OAM.

Both issue CMBA

 

Looks like they do, indeed. One good outfit (AMBA), one not-so-stellar (OXIM). Hey, come to think of it, I've seen ICI print "Certified MBA" with a copyright symbol. Interesting -- Do the two others use the exact same terminology as ICI?

Johann

 

No worries. If I argue strenuously with you, it's because I respect your opinion and think an attempted adjustment is worth the effort.

 

Thanks, CalDog. I respect yours, too -- and your knowledge. Discussion with you is always "worth the effort" - and a pleasure.

Johann