SUNY-Albany Beats Harvard, Yale, and MIT in Rankings!

Anthony Pina · Mar 4, 2005

Originally posted by bing
Absolutely. The atmosphere there helped me to thrive in school.

I come from a long line of Mormons. It's not so much of a mystery anymore to me. It is a mystery how I am treated now in my family(my wife's family treats her the same way). They basically disowned us after we left. Shunning might be a strong term but one of my wife's sisters told her that, "she no longer considers her her sister." Now, maybe that's a mystery. I did end up losing some good friends once I left, too.

In general, the Mormon people are a fairly moral bunch.

Oh, believe me, even with the rules at BYU there was plenty of hanky panky going on. I lived in Deseret Towers one year and the police arrested the guy next door for possession(this was early 80's). Then, just recently, there was the BYU football team rape/pornography/alcohol scandal.

No matter what school, or what moral environment in the world, there will be that element that strays. This is true at BYU, Wheaton, or Bob Jones.

Maybe you just weren't mature enough to go to college at that point. You have heard that "youth is wasted on the young." Maybe education is often that way, too. The flip side is that many others were serious students at young ages, even at schools like Illinois and Southern Illinois(where many i went to HS with went to college). And those didn't have the regs that BYU had.

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I am truly sorry that you have experienced this type of ostracizm as a result of your change of faith. That type of treatment is contrary to the teachings of their church. I hope that, in time, things will work out between you and your family.

By the way, I noticed that you did not mention the the four BYU players accused of alcohol and rape were not members of the LDS Church and that they were suspended from the team. At least two of them are transferring to other schools. I guess that they don't like the "stone cold sober" atmosphere

Tony

bing · Mar 4, 2005

Now, since you are a BYUer you will likely know that non-LDS athletes, who are standards breakers there, aren't looked at the way others are on campus. Case and point was Jim McMahon. Everyone knew he catted around and drank alcohol. Yet, he still was on the team. I even saw the dude smoking a cigar..ON CAMPUS. I know that Olsen looked the other way all the time.

Originally posted by Anthony Pina

I am truly sorry that you have experienced this type of ostracizm as a result of your change of faith. That type of treatment is contrary to the teachings of their church. I hope that, in time, things will work out between you and your family.

By the way, I noticed that you did not mention the the four BYU players accused of alcohol and rape were not members of the LDS Church and that they were suspended from the team. At least two of them are transferring to other schools. I guess that they don't like the "stone cold sober" atmosphere

Tony
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bing · Mar 4, 2005

Originally posted by Anthony Pina
[Bing, With all due respect, this is aboslute nonsense. The reasons for placing an academic hold are outstanding financial obligations to the university, overdue library books and the like. There is no policy allowing the withholding of academic transcripts due to one's church status (or lack thereof), your cliam is without merit until proven otherwise.
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Look at the regulations. Go out to byu.edu and you will see that they can withhold a transcript for other reasons other than what you say. Here is an exact quote from BYU's policy on withholding an academic record...

"...
2. There is an unresolved disciplinary action against the student;

4. The student has failed to comply with the decision of the BYU–Idaho Housing Arbitration Board; or

5. Other cases as determined by the University Policy on Registration and Academic Holds or as determined appropriate by the University.
..."

Number 5 clearly shows OTHER and OR AS DETERMINED BY THE UNIVERSITY. They already list financial in Number 1. They can hold your transcript if you even broke the word of wisdom or chastity portion of the honor code. This will require an ecclesiastical interview to clear up, too.

I am sorry, but I have heard so many stories about conversations with undisclosed people who talk to other undisclosed people about church retribution conspiracies. It is difficult to take second- and third-hand information seriously. Can you provide concrete examples of students who could not get their transcripts or any policy to that effect?...I thought not.

Right. I'm going to name names on this board for you. Know why the LDS Church Security hires so many ex-CIA and FBI agents? Likely you have never heard of Church Security, and BYU Security, taking down license plates numbers of those they think are "subversive" and running them through the state have you...and off campus, too?
(see the Salt Lake Tribune article, Nov 29, 1992, by Jorgensen and Stack for more on the license plates)

Since I have no firsthand knowledge of the incindent, nor the people involved, I cannot comment on your case. However, it has been my experience that those who publicize that they have left the LDS Church (especially those few who make the added effort to compose "resignation letters" and the further effort to tell people about the letters) have a particular agenda in doing so.

If you never compose a resignation letter they will follow you until you are dead. Even after that they will do baptize you after you are dead. Let's say you are on a no contact list. If you move to a new town guess who shows up at your door one day? Right. Your new hometeachers or the Bishop. Having been a Bishop, a Branch President, a High Councilman, an EQ President, and a Priests Advisor, I know what I am talking about. I know what happens with member records. You have to officially resign if you don't want contact.

Even after that it is iffy that they abide by the letter. If you never resign with a letter you ALWAYS stay on the book in SLC. Case and point is the Bishop in the local Ward in my town(who happens to be a really good friend of mine...we were at BYU together, too). He reported to me at work and when he resigned in December, to go back to Utah, he sicked the missionaries on me. I still don't know if this really was for a joke or he thought I would reconvert. It was funny, though.

You can call Greg Dodge up at COB and ask him personally. He has to deal with Bishops and SP's all the time that do not abide by the resignation letters.

I am happy that you have found a church that appears to meet your needs. God bless you.

Thanks so much, Tony. I feel I attend a church that does meet my spiritual needs. I feel pretty good. The family thing is tough for us, though. There is another BYUer in the next town over in similar circumstance. He left long before me and he was written out of his family's will. He's a pastor in the PCA Church now but he doesn't cheer for BYU football like me.

As a side note, my oldest daughter applied to BYU last year(with high gpa and outstanding sat's). I was supportive of it. I think she was curious as much as anything. When we left the church she was 9 years old. However,she was a baptized member. We officially resigned her, too. They officially denied her admission because she was an ex-Mormon. They would not let her in as a member of the Church of God. It did not make me mad at all. I was glad to have her closer to home.

O.K., I'm beginning to get the picture of what you are doing...

***For the benefit of Degreeinfo members who are considering the Bachelor of General Studies (BGS) program, I will insert this information (at least it will make this "off topic" relate to Degreeinfo)***

The BGS is a degree completion program for people who have enrolled at BYU but did not finish their degree. It is NOT a second bachelors program.

This is partly so. Their application says that if you do not meet the admissions criteria(a bachelor degree holder does not meet the criteria) then call the CE office to find out how you can become eligible.

So, I called the office to find that out. She asked if I had been a member and I said I had been. After a bit more discussion she said that I cannot be admitted due to the fact that I am no longer a member. That was that.

You know what. If I had actually tried harder I MIGHT have been let into the program. Last year I talked to a BYU administrator(who shall remain nameless). He told me they work a lot of things out. It just depends. I got the idea that even I could apply for this again and if I sent it to the right person I might could do it.

No university president (including Merrill Bateman) is obligated to “acknowledge” policies or groups devised by the AAUP, which is just one of a myriad of faculty professional organizations.

They may not be obligated to do much of anything. However, to say that AAUP is just another faculty organization is stretching it. AAUP is a collective bargaining unit at many schools. Here is a direct quote from Connecticut State University(applies to U-MASS, Rutgers, Cincy, etc)..."The CSU-AAUP shall represent the professional and economic interests of the State University faculties. It shall follow and implement the policies and standards recommended by the national AAUP wherever possible and appropriate. The CSU-AAUP shall provide fair and adequate representation through collective bargaining and grievance procedures to all members of the faculty. "

I am less familiar with Evenson (a junior faculty member in English) but I am familiar with D. Michael Quinn and his work and would certainly not use him as a credible example of academic freedom and scholarship. He is definitely not representative of “many professors”, so your statement about “many professors” is just a conjecture, unless you have something more tangible to back up that statement.

If I name names at BYU they get fired. I won't do that. However, Quinn is respectable and credible. His past include PhD from Yale, director of a BYU graduate program, featured speaker at many universities, prize winning author, 8 books, etc. He's fairly credible. But, other examples of BYU profs, who were either fired or left(and don't mind their names being used) are David Knowlton and Cecilia Konchar-Farr. Farr is now a professor at The College of St. Catherine. I don't know where Knowlton is. Others...Marth Nibley Beck, a former BYU Dean... Hal Miller, William Davis, Martha Bradley, etc. The list goes on.

No one is forced to work for any church-affiliated university. With over 2,000 universities to choose from, a professor who wishes to write pieces denigrating the LDS Church can surely find one that will provide the “academic freedom” to do so.

And in the case of Farr I don't know that she wrote anything derogatory about the LDS Church. She was pro-choice.

I agree, though. Find another school if BYU is too suffocating for you.

Of course, if the same professor wanted to somehow integrate her/his religious faith with scholarship, there is no “academic freedom” to do this at a state university (such as the one for which I work). Of course, that type of limitation on academic freedom does not bother the AAUP.

I don't disagree with you one bit here. From what I have read academic freedom is not the chiefest complaint among profs. It's pay.

Members of the LDS Church should not have the obligation to pay tithes to fund salaries of those who deliberately set out to work against the mission of the Church and its affiliated university.

I partially agree. BYU doesn't mind getting government grants and student loans.

Tithing income is decreasing(stocks were hit hard, too) in the LDS Church. It's certainly not growing anywhere near the rate it was in the 80's. Stakes are being consolidated. Stakes being created are mainly move-ins from the West(just redistribution of membership), or are in the mountain West for the most part(births and redistribution). I wonder how long tuition will be so low there. It's the best bargain going for a private school right now.

Suffice it to say I have some complaints about BYU. I still write them to the President's Office to complain once in a while. They, of course, never listen.

I loved my time there, and there are some areas they need to fix, in my opinion. In the end we both know that if the school isn't liked then one can leave. I just say that if one doesn't like it then they need to leave in the right way or else risk a transcript.

BYU, for many learners, is a great opportunity to earn credits...and a degree. It's low cost and they offer many courses via distance.
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SUNY-Albany Beats Harvard, Yale, and MIT in Rankings!

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