Southern Christian University Experience

Re: Re: Re: Southern Christian University Experience

http://www.ats.edu/members/turnertu.html

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Southern Christian University Experience

Does "Associate" status mean they are ATS accredited?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Southern Christian University Experience

No. My oversight.

http://www.ats.edu/accredit/pr1.htm

But it appears that they see themselves as moving toward accreditation because they cite the need for M.Div. residency as an ATS requirement in their school of theology.

http://www.southernchristian.edu/degree_masterdivinity.htm

 

I was deceived by a seminary almost 25 years ago, which told me that their *associate* status with ATS was full accreditation, just with a different label for geographical reasons. I found out later that this was a lie (tipped off by a semi-retired professor who told me to call ATS if I didn't believe him--so I did just that), and left the school, graduating later from a seminary which really did have ATS acreditation.

 

You should have just looked it up on the Internet.

 

Al Gore hadn't yet invented the Internet back then.

 

boydston,

It is a little wierd the way that SCU is set up. It is the only school that I know of that offers an M.Div with and without residency requirements.

By the way, just how important is ATS accreditation? Are there denominations that require an ATS accredited degree for ordination? Is it easier to land a seminary teaching job with an ATS accredited degree?

 

Eddie,

You mentioned in one of your previous posts, "I do plan to avoid Trinity even if they do obtain regional accreditation."

I was just wondering, what is there about Trinity that would cause you to remove it from your consideration, even if it receives accreditation?

I have actually thought about Trinity myself (and still am to some degree). It would certainly be less expensive than either SCU or LCU. And I'm in a position where I don't necessarily have to have an accredited degree, provided it's from a credible institution.

Which brings up the question, is Trinity not credible? I'd appreciate your sharing what you know, if you don't mind. And if anyone else has any input, I'd appreciate it as well -- especially those who have had personal experience with Trinity.

If a Trinity degree is not going to be credible and respected, then I need to know that.

Thanks!

mhl

 

Trinity:

The problem with Trinity seems not to be with the quality of the program, but a problem with past business practices. They were apparently claiming some type of foreign accreditation or recognition that was either bogas or over stated. Personally, if they end up acheiving RA, and I believe they will, I would absolutely consider them. I am quite certain that many schools have emerged as quality institutions after questionable beginnings.

Pug

 

Hi mhl and Pug:

You are right that quality of program is not really the issue, but the ethics of the place. The difficulty is that one form of slickness quits and another starts with them. Do a search and you will find scads of material.

Here are two brief notices:

1) they still (!) run an out-and-out mill called Masters Divinity School and deny that they do--but that's been proven.

2) They got "accreditation" first from the University of LIverpool and then from Christ Collehge Canterbury. They led people to believe that this meant what we mean in the US by Accreditation. It does not. What it usually means in UK/SA practice is that a school functions as an auxiliary instruction centre, so that when you finish your courses at accredited school "A", you are awarded your degree by related university "B". Not even that was the case with TTS. TTS coursework completed did not result in a University of LIverpool or CCC degree or diploma, just a nice shiny *sticker* on your TTS diploma indicating that the Brit school thought TTS was swell. They charged extra for the sticker, too.

So is the problem past or present? I think it's ongoing. Do your own research and make up your own minds.

Just to keep this thread-germane, SCU would be, IMO, a far better choice of unquestioned integrity.

Best wishes, Janko

 

Pug & Uncle Janko,

Thanks for your input. I have heard rumors about some questionable practices involving Trinity, but I have never really done any research into that myself. I will definitely do so.

This is what I can't get past in my own mind -- if Trinity is blatantly running a degree mill (MDS) and making questionable claims of "accreditation," then how did they ever achieve candidacy status for RA with the North Central Association? That doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry to have gotten this post somewhat off-topic -- this is just a question I've been wondering about for a while. To save face a little bit, let me say that you're right, Uncle Janko -- SCU is a good school!

Thanks again!

mhl

 

I just want to throw my hat back in the ring and say that I also think that SCU is a good school with a solid reputation. I don't think anyone would question that. I just think that TTS should remain a viable option if they go on to earn RA. TTS is affordable, they offer a very wide variety of classes, and they would be RA.

Pug

 

ATS accreditation is not important for all church groups -- nor should it be. For oldline churches it is nearly essential (although some make exceptions -- but why would you want the stigma of being an "exception"?). In many Baptist and Pentecostal groups no seminary at all is required -- some don't even require a Bible school degree. And that works for them.

As to whether you could teach at a seminary without an ATS degree -- that depends on a lot of things -- the culture of the seminary, whether it is accredited (or seeking accreditation), the subject matter you want to teach (an M.Div. is generally divided into thirds -- theological/historical subjects, biblical subjects, and practical subjects -- the academic requirements for teaching practical subjects are less rigorous -- but even that is changing), and your personal reputation in and outside the academic world.

Look at the schools where you think that you might fit in theologically and culturally. What kind of degrees do the teachers have? Is there a pattern? Are they all of a particular theological persuasion? Are they open to input from outside their movement? Are they all accredited or from big name European institutions? If so aim AT LEAST that high.

Some seminaries are hesitant to have people with a seminary Ph.D. teaching there. A lot of academics think that Ph.D.s issued by seminaries are inferior to those offered by universities. (No matter what doctorate you have someone is always going to think that it's inferior to some other doctorate. ) I remember that debate happening when I was a student at Fuller Theological Seminary.

Remember, too, that the point isn't just to get a degree but you want to have the best, most rigorous education possible for your situation. You want to stretch yourself because you are going to be stretching your students. How can you best position yourself to make a significant contribution?

 

mhl,

Uncle Janko did a good job of explaining why I would not consider Trinity. I wish they hadn't chosen to use a misleading marketing strategy to get students. As long as there are other options, I think that I will stay away from Trinity.


boydston,

Thanks for the response.

What you said about how academics view Ph.D's from seminaries as opposed to Ph.D.s from universities is really interesting. I had no idea that seminary Ph.D.s might be considered by some to be inferior to university Ph.D.s. Why would someone think that?

How rigorous did you find the classes at Fuller to be?

 

Why would seminary Ph.D.s be perceived as inferior? Breadth and depth of the faculty. There is a notion that there is more potential for cross-discipline input in a university. Snobbery.

Fuller is one of the most academically oriented of the evangelical seminaries. And even though they are more on the moderate side theologically they end up training a lot of people from the more conservative wing of the evangelical movement, too -- simply because they are rigorous.

However, in the Fuller school of theology (Fuller has three schools -- psychology, intercultural studies, and theology) of the 43 or so regular faculty members, 8 have Ph.D.s from seminaries. However, only two of them are in the hard theology areas (history, ethics, theology, biblical studies). All the others teach in the soft or practical areas OR are administrators who perhaps teach a class or two in a hard theology area.

And this is in spite of the fact that Fuller has a noteworthy Ph.D. program of its own. That is, they are not overtly prejudice against Ph.D.s from seminaries.

I'm sure that in some of the more conservative and fundamentalistic schools there is suspicion of Ph.D.s from universities. Dallas Theological Seminary is just the opposite of Fuller. They, by far, have more seminary educated Ph.D.s than university educated scholars (although so many of their faculty members are D.T.S. Ph.D.s that it seems incestuous -- by American educational standards – no dis intended. D.T.S. is a great school. I got to give a church planting lecture there once – and used to use their library when I lived in the Metroplex – D.T.S. grads would probably recognize me as the only male on campus without a tie).

Neither D.T.S. or Fuller (school of theology – the Fuller school of intercultural studies might be more open) at this point in history would be open to hiring someone with a distance based Ph.D., regardless of accreditation or whether it is from a seminary or a university -- especially if it is for a subject other than practical theology.

 

And some universities punish cross-disciplinary input. Obscurantism.