South Africa

200 post count, three accredited Master's degree programs under my belt! And your point is???

 

Oh I'm sorry I guess I will be quite now that I know you are better educated than me. I sorry master! I bet you are so much smarter than. You pop in and suck up to Steve who is a serial cynic. I post a page of info ( I guess all of those masters are blocking your view of the computer screen) and then you cheer him for calling me an alarmist. Me quoting facts from UK and SA newspapers and TV makes me an alarmist?

btw...Funny how you reference my time on the board, but when I make note of your post count you act like you want to engage me in fist a cuffs..."And your point is??? "

You good sir, have made my point for me!

 

Whoa, y'all. Slow down.

b4cz28 asked some questions. He found some info online and wanted opinions. More questions came up, this went back and forth, and Lukeness offered his opinions based on personal experience.

Here's the thing. While I hope that Lukeness's experiences/observations are common to SA, that doesn't entirely negate the information b4cz28 has found. Certainly it doesn't warrant downright rudeness. If I told you that living near Disney is like living in a Norman Rockwell painting because I lived in Celebration for three years, I would be making a valid observation, but not a *complete* observation. Because what I would be leaving out is the fact that a few miles down the road is government-subsidized housing that's had some real issues with drug busts and the like.

I know I'm not a moderator, and I certainly don't own this forum, but simply speaking as a user? Every time someone gets on here and starts acting like a jerk, it spoils the experience. You can disagree without insulting someone and you can debate a point without being rude. Please keep that in mind.[/soapbox]

 

Let it go!

You are starting to show the entire board just how immature you can be. I have nothing to prove to you and wish you well in your associate degree studies, kid.

 

Thanks for coming on this thread helping me to answer my question about the quality of a SA degree.


Thank you as well for wishing me well! I often go with things I want/need to pay for the classes I need! So any encouragement I get is well used.

 

Hey everyone, let's keep the tone civil. OK, please? Thanks so much. Mike

 

Thanks for that.

 

I have to say that the way the original posting was written seemed to suggest (to me) that if white people wern't available then the higher education system of South Africa would crumble. My own experience (not so recent) is that if you go to the websites of each and every South African university and look at the faculty pages you will see that there there are a substantial number of black professors/instructors. I'm sure there are more just waiting their turn.

Personally, I would be willing to bet that if every tenured faculty member in every US university were to disappear overnight then they would simply be replaced by others with similar (perhaps lesser) qualifications. There is no lack of PhDs in the USA. In South Africa it might be somewhat similar. I'd be willing to bet that if every white professor disappeared they would simply be replaced by a black PhD who might have somewhat less experience but not necessarily less ability/knowledge/skill.

Don't worry about "brain drain," and the South African universities. They'll be fine.

 

Kizmet,

Thanks, I also came to the exact same conclusion upon reading and re-reading the original post.

I have nothing further to say on the topic other than I wish South Africa well and back to the silent mode.

Regards,

Jim

 

Let’s get real here, for many, many years the majority of people who got to go to college in SA were white. It stopped in the mid 90's. The problem with the US is that everybody tries to make things racist. If you look at the rates of graduation by race in SA the majority of people passing are white. Yet they are leaving at high rates.

 

"Don't worry about "brain drain," and the South African universities. They'll be fine"

I'm not worried about them. I have recommended SA schools to people on this forum, I will no longer. They ranked DEAD LAST!!!! They are not fine.

 

To which ranking are you referring?

 

Please read this article as well and then comment. It is one of many that were post in this thread already.

A special report on South Africa: Last in class | The Economist

 

OK, so I read the article. It says that many of the SA schools, at all levels, are substandard. Considering the current situation in this country this is not a big surprise. But if they're substandard, aren't they substandard regardless of the color of the students skin? If, for example, UNISA is substandard (and I don't know that it is substandard) isn't it substandard regardless of the race/ethnicity of the student? So if it's substandard then even the present teachers (white and black) are substandard. Is Witts substandard? Is Free State substandard? Rhodes? Then all their grads, black and white are substandard. So if the white leave then so what? You'll have a black higher ed system that will need to improve. I'll quote from your article:

"At the top, South African students do as well as anyone, but the great majority are performing way below their capabilities."

It's those at the top that become the teachers in the higher ed system. So the country is producing good teachers. Does South Africa have a complex set of interconnected social problems? Of course they do. Does this mean they can not produce competent people to teach at the university level? I've seen no real evidence of this.

 

This is what I was talking about! A real discussion.

1- Thanks for acknowledging they are substandard
2-Yes
3- Well, it’s not that the black students are dumber; they are just failing at way higher rates.
4- My whole point, is that white people ran the country for many years, taught in the uni's etc. They have turned it all over to the ANC. They have a program called Black Empowerment that gives blacks precedence with jobs regardless of qualifications. The so what is what happened to SA.
5-I don't know how. I posted tons of links. There are government reports etc that talk about them becoming substandard. Heck I even found a group of ex-professors from SA talking about in an article (They were all in the UK).



As many of the articles said, it an ongoing dumbing down so black students can pass. That’s not me, that’s what was said in the articles. The other issues are that they are lower level education system is shot. Many white people still have more of the wealth and their children attend private schools up until they go to college. They are passing at higher rates because of this. Once they pass they are gone out of SA. At what point do we down grade the status of SA Degrees. When they hand them out for money? I’m not saying we are at that level yet, but it’s the way their going.

 

Re: lower-level education in SA.

As I said earlier, I've had minimal contact with some folks in SA through homeschooling venues. I will say the people I've talked to have had a genuine disgust of their school system. But then... so do most homeschoolers here in the US, eh? We aren't exactly neutral judges when it comes to government-run schools!

I do worry about dumbed-down curriculum and what it will do to future generations and the world in general, and Lukeness alluded to that problem. I think that's a big issue that doesn't get nearly enough attention here and probably all around the globe.

 

The only thing that I have acknowledged is that the article has said they are substandard. I have no information (and neither do you) that proves this. Please pardon me if I don't take a magazine article as definitive proof.

South Africa has a huge number of problems. They, along with the rest of the African continent will continue to struggle thoughout my lifetime. Social, economic, political problems. There are people in South Africa dying of AIDS every day. People without food or shelter. People without education. All these things are also true in the USA (perhaps at a smaller rate). The white minority that formerly ruled SA is fleeing you say? And you are afraid that this will devastate that country's higher education system. Here is a program that might interest you:

USB | MBA Degree | MPhil In Futures Studies

 

1 was just to mess with you.

 

You need to remember that it is still in Africa. There are and always have been these or similar problems at a large scale. I think what's important is how they are dealt with and how the country manages to handle the obstacles that are inherently there.

The brain drain is nothing new, but now it gets more press. Years ago the country's top black academics would frequently leave the country and go into exile. Now they're staying and there are whites who are leaving. Sometimes these things balance out a little.