sorbon.fr - what do you guys think?

I'm not so sure. If somebody intentionally misrepresents something, and if another person, relying on the misrepresentation, suffers damages as a result, then that might conceivably satisfy the legal definition of fraud. I'm not certain that Sorbon is guilty of that, but it's something that they need to be careful with.

Another thing regarding legality: There's this widespread idea out there that if a degree is legal, then it must be legitimate. If the degree was legally awarded, then other people need to recogize it as a real, true and credible degree. Of course that's a complete non-sequitur.

Legality in this instance simply means that a business' proprietors aren't putting themselves in legal danger by running their business. Being able to run their enterprise without worrying about going to jail would no doubt be a great relief to them. But that's an awfully minimal standard of higher education legitimacy.

A degree seller's ability to stay out of jail doesn't begin to suggest that any degrees they sell are academically meaningful or that they are recognized as legitimate degrees out in the academic and professional worlds.

 

The issue here is not whether VAE is legal or accepted in France. That's a red-herring.

The issue that we face is whether or not Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon is a life-experience diploma mill. We can't just accept your word that it isn't. To be blunt, if it really is a mill, then that would make you a con-artist. So it's your veracity that's in question here.

We need to be given the name of the French agency (assuming that there is one) that provides your quality assurance oversight, that in American-speak accredits you. We need to understand the position and standing of that agency within the larger context of French higher education. (Is it something analogous to state-licencing of unaccredited schools, to RA, or what?) And we have to be able to contact that agency directly and have them answer our many questions and clarify the precise status of your ecole.

 

That is part of the problem, there is no agency that accredits private education in France. For what I read, the only schools that are allowed to grant "degrees" as we know them in the US and Canada are public schools. The current legislation allows private schools to grant private certificates that can be recognized by public schools on a case by case basis. The extreme example is HEC that is a well known business private school, most public schools would recognize HEC credits but they are not obliged to take them.

We have a similar problem in Quebec (also based on the French system) that allows any private school to operate as long as they don't call themselves Universities. Local people won't go to these type of schools as they don't have any local credibility but their main target is international students.

I wonder how many French students are enrolled at Sorbone, my guess is that the vast majority of enrolled students are international that want to use the degree outside France where the knowledge of the French system is very vague.

 

I borrowed this from our friends at degreediscussion. It's a French newspaper article that says that robert de sorbon is a degree mill.

http://eco.rue89.com/2008/11/12/une-fausse-sorbonne-vend-des-diplomes-pour-500-euros

This is what Google Translator gave me

"In the tribe bidonneurs de CV, Rue89 players had already been acquainted with a master in the matter: Alexis Debat, terrorism expert who self squatting trays U.S. television. But his bogus doctorate awarded by the equally bogus Edenvale University, is one example of the potential market for "diploma mills", literally diploma mills, which are rampant on the Web.

Want an MBA Business or a Master in Computer Science? Against a few hundreds or thousands of euros, false universities Online sésames issue their way or no consideration. According to sources, there were 300 or 800 in the world. A growing industry, surfing in recent years on democratization of access to the Internet.

In the USA, the system is run. Most degree mills take advantage of the reputation of Anglo-Saxon schools playing on the spelling: the very prestigious Stanford University.edu becomes on a web Standford University.edu.tf much less intrusive on the selection of its students. The phenomenon does not spare France.

A strange "Ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon"

It is at the heart of the green countryside of Poitou-Charentes, the Trimouille specifically, that lies the surprising Ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon. Contrary to what its name might suggest, it is not a rural branch of Paris IV-Sorbonne

On its website in English, all the sections correspond to those of a "university" is the word of the Dean home, currency, coin alumni ... and a shop (supposedly "not for profit"), where you can buy some "goodies" (cap at 15 euros, the sticker for 6 euros).

Come take a look at the range of qualifications. On everything from MBA and Bachelors, Doctorates of trade, agriculture, science, aerospace and theology! You can even choose the title of the diploma. Here, the customer is king.

How is this possible? The argument is implacable: the validation of acquired experience (VAE). In France, this device, legal, you can turn years of professional experience in degree. Example: You've been an educator for fifteen years. You can recognize this experience to acquire such a Master. However, in the opinion of those who lived, the path is long and is not a formality.

The university "Robert de Sorbon" benefits from a legal vacuum

Ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon, it asks you send a CV by email brief and above all a PayPal payment of EUR 50 before anything else (and another 500 euros if your application is accepted). The answer of the jury is guaranteed in 30 days time.

It is a legal vacuum on the activity of Robert de Sorbon has nested. Except for regulated professions (including medical), anyone can provide vocational training and offer a degree without special approval. In this no man's land, there are serious institutions and other much less.

Robert de Sorbon is part of the second category. Specifically, the university does not exist. It was simply incorporated in 2004 as an association to Trimouille. On the spot, no campus, as we confirmed the head of the relay point for the Council on the sector VAE South Vienna.

The site was registered by the Dean of the pseudo-university itself, John Thomas. There are traces of this curious figure on the other side of the planet, in Wallis and Futuna, community overseas France where it has registered the website of a no less strange Wallis University. The latter offers roughly the same degree system that Robert of Sorbonne, and has no premises, which we confirmed the vice-rector of Wallis.

A serial-university in Florida

John Thomas is the pseudonym used by a Frenchman become an American, Jean-Noel Prade, who certified in 1999 in the courts of Sarasota County, use these pseudonyms.

The man has many hats. Besides Robert de Sorbon and Wallis, it also has another University of Florida, St. Augustine. Prade also heads the AUAP an organization that evaluates and advises students in their search for an American option and runs parallel to other activities, including sales of cosmetics in Romania.

Because they can be reached by phone, we managed to contact him by email. He denies being the creator of these universities, even if he says about the Robert de Sorbon University.

"I assure you that AUAP and I have had no contact with the institution for at least two years and on request. For me, the institutions that you mention (Wallis, Sorbon, St. Augustine) are not mills degree because they have the right to grant degrees and, according to what they say, serious procedures. "

In any case, the man responsible for its universities in a good family man. He does not hesitate, when the Wikipedia references cast doubt on the probity of its schools, to clean your computer from Sarasota on articles Sorbonne.

Multi-caps, Prade behind a few pots. In 2000, he was convicted for having bought the Internet domain names Louis Vuitton. In 2006, AUAP is condemned for having claimed a certification that it did not.

Alerted some local journalists, including the Sarasota Herald Tribune, published an investigation into the actions of that character ...

A global market of $ 200 million



France is not the champion of the world of diploma mills, but continues, according to our survey, only five. The National Center for professional certification collects from time to time complaints and questions from students about the validity of these institutions, gathered in a folder called "scams".

Robert de Sorbon addition, several questions of users concerning multicultural International University, based in Dominica. The university, which took information from the CNCP has no value, the proposed system of accreditation by the EAV that Robert of Sorbonne. Détail amusant, the Rector is also the author of a guide to VAE, published in 2004 by Eyrolles.

In any case, advice to entrepreneurs in these times of crisis, the creation of a diploma mill is a market full of promise. John Bear, a consultant for the FBI in 2001 estimated that the market could go beyond 200 million per year.

The turnover of some false universities range from 10 to 20 million. Some have a background in tax: State of Delaware, micro-states of the Caribbean, Liberia, Panama ..., identified as the State of Oregon. Result: Justice is often powerless.

In the United States, the phenomenon is taken very seriously, accused of being a gateway for illegal immigration and terrorism. In France, the scale of the scam is of course much less important. But if the market is so flourishing, is that there is a pool of consumers willing to take the plunge.

Just go to some professional social networks like Linkedin and Viadeo to realize that these diplomas are worthless takers. Evidence that in France as elsewhere, the diploma, even bogus, remains a sure bet. "

 

En Conclusion

We must point out that article from a extreme left blog that you sited was obliged to correct the article thanks to our legal intervention. But lets go to the principal:

We can all agree that:

The Ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French private university that is legally operating in France for 5 years .

That our VAE procedure is valid and seriously done by a VAE jury, made of University professors.

"Diploma Mills" are forbidden in France and we could not operate one for 5 years with such scrutiny.

We simply apply the Law that authorizes French institutions to apply the VAE, a process which allows to grant full degrees through work experience.

I know that it can shock some people that considers it as a "Diploma Mill". It is their right, but then all French Universities should be considered as "Diploma Mills".

FYI The number of VAE granting full degrees is important more than 27,000 in 2007.

I think it may conclude this thread.
C Dela Faide
ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon
www.sorbon.fr

PS we are quite sure that the webmaster can check that I am not located in the US ...

 

Then I'm sure that you could provide a link to the article where this correction was made.

 

The administrators of this university can say whatever they want, but any school that would give me a college degree for life experience seems questionable to me. In an interview, how would I explain such a degree? The experience the degree was awarded for would be evident in my CV. Also, in my opinion a professional license or certification is the appropriate approach for evidence of a culmination of experience.

Besides, not a single faculty member is French according to their website, the name of the school is obviously trying to benefit off of the name Sorbon while the explanation for it is anything but solid, and I've never seen the website of a school try so many times to explain how it is not a diploma mill. If you're not a diploma mill, the alumni should be the loudest voice for that explanation, not the administrators or faculty.

 

The Ecole supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French private university that is legally operating in France for 5 years .


No a University but a "Ecole Privé", there is a huge difference between "Université" and "Ecole" and the fact that you are claiming to be one is a clear evidence of deception

That our VAE procedure is valid and seriously done by a VAE jury, made of University professors.

Serious? None of the professors listed in the site are French nor they work for French schools so how are they so familiar with the French system?, they are probably paid a sum per degree granted so there is a clear bias towards granting the degree in order to get the money

"Diploma Mills" are forbidden in France and we could not operate one for 5 years with such scrutiny.
The fact that you are still in business only shows that there is a market for a fast and barely legal diplomas and that there is a clear flaw in the French system

We simply apply the Law that authorizes French institutions to apply the VAE, a process which allows to grant full degrees through work experience.

You are not allowed to grant degrees but "Certificats d'Enseignement Supérieur Privé" that is not the same, University degrees "Diplomes publics" are only granted by Public schools

I know that it can shock some people that considers it as a "Diploma Mill". It is their right, but then all French Universities should be considered as "Diploma Mills".
VAE is a legit mechanism to credit experience for education without doubt, but the fact that your school does not provide any instruction nor conducts research but only uses "rented" foreign faculty to "grant" diplomas based on a legal loophole seems a bit too suspicious

 

Besides the legal jargon and justification, the reality that the school made it to the top 100 reported educational scams:
http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/Education_Degree_Scams_Unaccreddited.php

Not exactly the ranking that you want your alma mater to appear if you ask me

 

In Conclusion

The choice is yours you have the choice between the private ugly page that we will sure probably sue in France or the declarations of French officials that confirm publicly that the Ecole Robert de Sorbon is a legitimate private institution of higher educations that is authorized to grant degrees in France.

This French University is not in the US, as the webmaster of this forum can attest.

Our 5 years of existence and our students of 91 countries proves that the choice is obvious.
C. de la faide
www.sorbon.fr

 

Why don't you start suing the Great State of Maine first:

http://www.maine.gov/education/highered/Non-Accredited/pa-ru.htm
And then just move on to Oregon next:
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx.
Or let's stay in Europe. Robert de Sorbon is nowhere listed in the German international University registry:
(http://anabin.de/scripts/lstAliasnamen.asp?Page=4&SuchLand=5&Param=&Data=&OrderBy=InstitutionsName&StartsWith=E


Even if your institution should be in some twisted sense legal - anyone using such a degree in a world, where you can do a quick google search and results like these show up, is really shooting himself in the foot. And the "life experience" thing is not really helping to make it look more legit.

 

I already put this question to you once before:

We need to be given the name of the French agency (assuming that there is one) that provides your quality assurance oversight, that in American-speak accredits you. We need to understand the position and standing of that agency within the larger context of French higher education. (Is it something analogous to state-licencing of unaccredited schools, to RA, or what?) And we have to be able to contact that agency directly and have them answer our many questions and clarify the precise status of your ecole.

You've carefully avoided answering, yet you continue to talk grandly about "declarations", "authorizations" and "public confirmations".

I'm inclined to conclude that you have no answer and that all your grand talk is simply talk.

The nature and status of Robert de Sorbon has been established to my satisfaction. There's a high probability that it's simply an internet scam, a life-experience diploma mill. I'm willing to revisit that judgement in the unlikely event that credible evidence to the contrary appears.

 

They better have a good lawyer as the government of Denmark also tags them as a "Degree mill"

http://www.ciriusonline.dk/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=Files%2FFiler%2FNorric%2F2005CPH_Diploma_mills.pdf


In summary, given the facts:

-Sorbon is classified as a degree mill by the stats of Oregon and Maine in the United States and the minister of Science in Denmark.
-Sorbon has the right to grant private certificates that are tagged as PhD or Masters only because PhDs and Masters have no meaning in the French education system. This is the same as if I open a private school with no University word in the school name in California and decide to grant certificates with the name "Doctoraatstitel" (PhD in dutch) as this technically does not violate the law as they are not protected degree names in the state of California.
-Sorbon has managed to stay 5 years in business as they pay their taxes and don't violate any French law and there are people willing to pay money for a expensive piece of paper.