Remember Jackson State & Kent State

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Ted Heiks, May 14, 2009.

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  1. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Let us pause for a moment of silence to remember the two dead and twelve wounded in the Vietnam draft riots at Jackson State University, May 14, 1970. Killed were Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. Wounded were Fonzie Coleman, Tuwaine Davis, Climmie Johnson, Leroy Kenter, Gloria Mayhorn, Andrea Reese, Patricia Ann Sanders, Stella Spinks, Lonzie Thompson, Vernon Steve Weakley, Redd Wilson Jr., and Willie Woodard.
     
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Also Remember Kent State

    Let us also pause for a moment to remember the four dead (and nine wounded) in Ohio from Kent State University, May 4, 1970. Killed were Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer, and William Schroeder. Wounded were Alan Canfora, John Cleary, Thomas Grace, Dean Kahler, Joseph Lewis, Donald Mackenzie, James Russell, Robert Stamps, and Douglas Wrentmore.
     
  3. thomaskolter

    thomaskolter New Member

    From what I read the protesters brought that on themselves, they should have obeyed the authorities and found a better way to protest that was not a threat to the peace.
     
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    You must have read some stuff indicating that standing around watching is a threat to peace!

    "The Kent State shootings, also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre, occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The Guardsmen shot into the crowd 67 times for 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.

    Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. However, other students who were shot had merely been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance."

    This is from the Wikipedia article which appears to be nicely sourced.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_Incident
     
  5. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    I recommend reading the FBI report. While some (all?) of the students might have been unarmed it wasn't a non-violent war protest. And considering the numbers of students I imagine that the questionably trained NG troops were out of their element.

    http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/kentstat.htm

    interesting read.
     
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    It's very doubtful that the 4 kids murdered had anything to do with violent activity. Two of the kids weren't even involved in the demonstration. True that the previous day (or two days earlier?) a building was burned. True that there was some rock throwing earlier. The murdered victims were all over 100 yards away. How many people do you know that can throw a rock over 100 yards?
     
  7. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    perhaps the Kent State version will provide some additional details:

    http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

    The reality is that we will never know how afraid the guardsmen were, or if they actually conspired to shoot, but considering the events and that the National Guard of the time period was not the Guard of today I am thankful that more folks didn't die (imagine if M-16s and machine guns would have been available as they are today).

    This event is the classic two wrongs don't make a right and it cost these students their lives.
     
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    FYI: For years, the higher-ups that were involved in the Kent State killings perjured themselves, insisted that there was no order to fire. They have now found a student who recorded the entire thing on camera from his dorm room, sent the recording to a technology company in California to have it digitally enhanced, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was an order to fire. Besides, doesn't it seem just a bit suspicious to think that there was no order to fire when the Guardsmen walked up a hill, turned around in unison, and proceeded to fire into a crowd from over a football field away?
     
  9. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Ted,

    from purely a tactical perspective it doesn't make sense to engage from a position other than the top of the hill. 100 yards is close, not far, in the military world. I doubt that any firing order was issued, otherwise far more damage would have been done. But, there is a distanct possibility that a couple of individuals decided to fire thereby causing others to follow out of fear. The fact that a cease fire happened so soon leads me to believe no competent order to fire was given.

    Keep in mind that the Mayor called for the Guard support due to the students' activities prior to the shooting. Had the students done as requested and disbanded, the shootings would not have had a venue. By not following instructions and numerous attempts to disban, the situation was escalated.

    Regardless, your effort to remember these folks is notable and I sure don't want to drag your thread into a debate when your intention was good.

    Best wishes,
     
  10. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    You doubt that there was an order to fire. OK. The video says otherwise. The book will be out this time next year (ca. May 4, 2010), just in time for the fortieth anniversary.
     
  11. bmills072200

    bmills072200 New Member

    Where can we see the video? Have you seen it?
     
  12. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    When you are supposedly fearing for your life it doesn't make sense to go to the top of the hill before shooting. You shoot when you fear for your life. They claimed that they had to shoot because they feared for their life from kids throwing rocks from 100 yards away. The distance of 100 yards is very far away when you're talking about people throwing rocks. True that it is close if both parties have high powered rifles but that was not the situation in this case. There weren't more killed because apparently some shot their rifles into the air or into the ground instead of into the students.
     
  13. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I've not seen the video yet and I am not sure whether it has been published yet. I was, however, in Kent, Ohio, on May 4, 2009 and one of the speakers mentioned said video.
     
  14. cutedeedle

    cutedeedle I speak Geek. Will translate on request.

    Tragic events - my opinion

    I was a young adult at that time, also actively protested LBJ's/Nixon's ghastly war, and will never forget the Time mag cover of the horrified girl bending over a student who was dead, blood running from his/her head, a stream gushing down the street. I wasn't in Ohio but saw and read everything about it; that tragedy was entirely unnecessary. In the late 60s and early 70s I believe the government was surely on a rampage to squash our dissent against the war. Kent State, as well as the instant execution of a purported "traitor" in Vietnam, will go down in infamy. To imply there was justification for killing four unarmed students by the military is to impugn the students who died and the nature of the protests and is a total misunderstanding of the culture at the time. The Vietnam war, and all of the young men who were drafted, served and died, was a defining era for us early baby boomers. We will never forget. We will also never trust our government again. Think of the trauma of 9-11 and then stretch it out for many years and 58,000 dead in our military, then South Vietnam was taken over by the Communists anyway. What a waste. What a tragedy.

    This cannot be dismissed as "the students should have obeyed the authorities." At the time our entire country was divided over the war. LBJ chose not to run again for President because of the Vietnam quagmire. Richard Nixon resigned the presidency because of Watergate and that was related to Vietnam. Let's not be revisionists, let's understand the culture at the time this happened. You need to put this in the context of our country's history. All of us who were amongst the older baby boomers had friends and relatives who were drafted, served, and I can confidently say that most of us know of friends/relatives who died for that quagmire.

    Thanks Ted, we needed to be reminded.
     
  15. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    To imply that the shootings were intentionally engineered by some malign conspiracy is to impugn things too.

    I think that those increasingly distant events were an unfortunate tragedy all around. Mistakes in judgement were made on both sides.

    Not really. There's really no need for anyone to drag iconic events from out of the past in hopes of keeping feelings of social alienation alive.
     
  16. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    History, sir, is philosophy teaching by example and those who are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it. We need to remember the past so that these things shall never happen again!
     
  17. cutedeedle

    cutedeedle I speak Geek. Will translate on request.

    Thank you Ted, we do need to remember!

    For Bill -- I never implied or even thought, then or now, that there was a malign conspiracy by the jack-booted thugs to murder the students en masse. (Yes, I really did say jack-booted thugs!)

    However, there were many student protests before the Kent State and Jackson State events -- Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, not to mention all of the protests against LBJ, Nixon and the war. The National Guard had several years' experience in dealing with student protests, violent or otherwise.

    There is never any conceivable justification, excuse or "reason" for an armed military murdering students who are protesting, rocks or not. And if one were to continue your reasoning down that slippery slope, we should not remember veterans on Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, or at any other time because that just keeps "iconic events" alive. It is for that exact reason we do need to keep iconic events alive -- to remember that a government with unlimited power over its citizens no longer represents us but oppresses us.

    I don't know about social alienation ..... I didn't feel so then nor do I now. However at the time many of us young 'uns believed the war was an abomination and most of us expressed our dismay peacefully, as is our constitutional right.
     
  18. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    TK: "From what I read the protesters brought that on themselves..."

    JB: You bet they did! Just as the 6 million Jews who were killed by the Nazis brought it on themselves. Nazi Germany: love it or leave it.

    No, wait a minute . . . the holocaust never happened anyway, so ignore this post.
     
  19. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    There is no need to remember the past? Then why study history? What a moronic statement.

    Abner
     
  20. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Amen, broheim!
     

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