Question for Christian theologians

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tipping points & judgment day

Not all, Bill.
As one of our hymns puts it,
"Lord, it was not me that chose You. / That, I know, could never be..."

 

I agree with Janko here, and would like to add that while I was chosen by G-d and responded to His call, I was certainly not raised in a Christian household.

I never heard a single prayer spoken by my parents--not once. Other than I think three weeks one time of "continuous" attendance when I was nine, we went to church a grand total of about three or fourth Easters over the course of my first 18 years. That three-week stint involved the local pastor of the little church just around the block from my dad's car dealership talking him into coming over with the family. I'm sure his intentions were good, both for my family and the church: salvation for us, a prominent well-heeled local businessman with deep pockets for the church. But he was thwarted on both counts. Dad never dropped a penny in the collection plate to my knowledge--in fact, I don't know if he's ever given a nickle to any cause of any sort, least of all religious, though he's a softie if someone comes to him with a personal need. Anyway, Pastor Parrish (his real name) put me up there as an altar boy after the first week, and I got to sit up front a few feet away from the candles. Tried my best to blow 'em out and make the altar boy on the other side laugh--I didn't listen to a thing, didn't care a whit. Of course, we left soon after. I think the only reason dad was there in the first place was he thought he might be able to swing a few deals--good for business.

So that was pretty much the grand sum total of my "religious experience" prior to leaving home. My parents were pretty indifferent to the matter. The thing they weren't indifferent about was when I became a Christian. They told me I was completely nuts and rejected the whole works--some pretty heated scenes. So I can promise you, not all of us who come to a knowledge of Jesus/Jeshua as Messiah have that Sunday School background.

 

I figure that if corporations can do it for stocks then the option must be available from the big teacher. Bill Dayson's recent posts have given me complete confidence in my proxy decision. I also figure that if Bill get's it wrong then a forgiving big teacher would allow me to retake the class or maybe do extra credit. If the big teacher is unwilling to work with a sincere hardworking student that happens to fail a test or two then I'm in the wrong school.

 

Oh, He will work with you if you fail a test or two or three or a million, but I'm still not quite sure about this proxy thing. I kind of think that's something your going to have to work out with your Maker directly.

You know, He kind of wants to know you, allow you to get to know Him, being as He made you in His image and is absolutely nuts about you. He's got a picture of you right there in that very thick wallet, flips it out every time He's approached: "Look at that boy Huffman, what'ya think?", and He beams as he looks down at you.

Why miss out on such a relationship? Heaven ain't just fire insurance--hey, it ain't fire insurance at all!

 

What a nice compliment to put me in the same category as Uncle Janko when it comes to theology. Like John the Baptist, I am not worthy to fill Unk's shoes.

He is a scholar of the first rate and I am still struggling and learning and changing my views as I study and learn. I personally don't see any Scriptural evidence for "salvation by proxy" save (pardon the pun) using proxy very loosely in that Christ died in our stead.

 

That's a good answer. By the way, you're far too humble--no check that, one can never be too humble--ask Moses.

 

little fauss:

I will sleep well tonight.

You finally said it. You finally stated that you are not a Jew per se.

Any difficulties that I have had with you are now laid to rest.

How you choose to express your doubtless sincere Christian faith is no longer of any concern to me because you have now made it clear that you are not speaking AS a Jew nor FOR the Jews.

Good show. Thank God.

Now, if I can ONLY get you to see that Justice Scalia is a thoroughgoing jurisprudential fraud...

 

AMEN! Did you see the article (the cover story, actually) about him in the New Yorker a few weeks back? Excellent!

 

For once..... we agree wholeheartedly.

 

But we're kind of joined at the hip in a way. I am a "Christian", but not as it's defined by many, and certainly not as it's defined by modern mainstream Christians. The separation from the Jews--the denials of Jewishness by Christians--was a monumental mistake in church history. The scriptures written between 1960 and 1900 years ago that I consider an addition to the Hebrew Law, Scriptures and Prophets, even say, to paraphrase: You gentiles who worship Jeshua, you are nothing but a wild branch grafted in to the larger tree that is G-d's Chosen People. In the first century or two, people still regarded this part of the New Testament as authoritative: we were considered a subset of Judaism, just Jews who considered that their Messiah had come.

I consider myself that--not this modern version that has layered millenia of errant tradition upon the real thing, stopped celebrating the festivals, stopped observing what I think is the most crucial of all days, the Pesach, and replaced it with a ritualistic little dry wafer and glass of juice every Sunday or month (and Sunday, when did the L-rd G-d mandate that as Shabbat?). If you take a good hard look at Jeshua recounted in M,M,L and J, you'll find Him thoroughly Jewish from head to foot, using traditional rabbinic teaching techniques, making extremely heavy reference to the Law, Prophets and Scriptures. He was a Jew's Jew. I worship that Jew, and consider myself one of those wild branches grafted into the tree of Judaism. I think the paths that many Christians have taken over the centuries have alienated Jews and kept them from seeing the truth of their Messiah (at least what I think is the truth).

So no, I cannot speak for all Jews or Jews generally, because my views would be decidedly non-orthodox to them, and considered heretical by them. But most Christians think I'm nuts also--witness Janko's ire at my honest take on what the Christian church has done with Pesach and the "L-rd's Supper" over the centuries, how truly off base I believe it's gotten.

I can't really speak for Jews generally or Christians generally, can I? I guess I can speak only for myself, my family, and a small but growing group of Christians who are realizing that a break was made centuries ago for other than spiritual reasons, and that it was wrongheaded and misguided. Just my opinion, L-rd forgive me if I'm in error.

The favorite Rabbi under whom I've ever studied is Rabbi Daniel Lancaster. You might be able to google him up, I don't know. My favorite organization is En Gedi up in Michigan. Check 'em out.

 

And there's a fine and even-handed arbiter of the truth!

 

little fauss,

Well...I don't actually understand your position. As I've said before, your Christian observance is absolutely none of my business. You do not claim to be a Jew and I would be very surprised to learn that any recognizable Jew or Jewish institution would consider you to be a Jew so what you say about your religious is of no legitimate concern to me.

However...I admit that I don't see why any non Jew would bother to celebrate what are, after all, largely NATIONAL celebrations such as Pesach, Hannukah or Sukkot (or, for that matter, Yom H'Shoah) or celebrations with specific reference to the convenant between the Children of Israel and the tribal Diety such as Shabbat, Rosh H'shannah, or Yom Kippur. Even by JEWISH standards you are not bound by the commandments (beyond the Noahide Laws) nor are you likely to suffer the fate of the Jewish people as a whole.

Also, I have a hard time imagining anyone deriving meaning from these observances except in the wider community of Jews. I don't know...it seems to me that it would be sort of like my deciding to celebrate Canada Day here in New Mexico. Nice, I suppose, but would it really mean anything since neither I nor my neighbors are Canadian? Would there be any actual virtue in doing this? Would it somehow please the Canadian government?

Well, as I said, your observances are up to you and no Jew has a right to tell you different. Zei gesund.

 

Those are fair points, but you must recognize that I don't see them as national observances only--though possibly the post-Torah observances I might agree with you. I'm not sure the Macabbean Revolt has that much relevance to me today, though Jeshua observed Hanukkah, so it's not a bad idea for those who worship Him to do likewise.

G-d chose to bless the whole world through His Chosen People--and you are part of them. These observances and this Chosen People have Universe-shaking significance. The actualy creator of the Universe spoke to men: Abraham, Issaac, Jacob, and chose to bless the world through their offspring, to reveal Himself to everyone, Jew and Gentile, through them. And then later He gave his word to Moses, and many of those observances were established, Pesach being in my opinion, the most important. And finally, He blessed this world and gave it its untimate redemption through His Chosen People, thorugh a man who was more than a man, from the tribe of Judah, a descendant of David. That's what I believe.

There are so many parallels between those observances that G-d gave His people 3300 years ago and His plan for redemption through Jeshua 1975 years ago that I can hardly begin. I've already mentioned that Pesach was about Messiah--and the parallels are startling, you really owe it to yourself to at least look into them. And virtually all of the other holidays, which were to be followed as an everlastng ordinance, not cast aside with the sacrifice of Messiah for our sins, were for everyone who follows the L-rd G-d. I worship the One who spoke to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I am a wild branch grafted into the root of Israel, grafted into the Jews. Christianity--at least as it was before the traditions of man took hold of it--is not a new religion, it's the fulfillment of the old one, Jeshua was not a new messanger bringing entirely new stuff, He did not come to overturn the Law, but to fulfill it. He was a Jew, and in a sense, you might say G-d is a Jew, and I worship that Jew.

You really really really need to google the En-Gedi resource center if you want to find out more about this and understand where I'm coming from--I exhort you to do it and start a dialog with the exec director, who has her PhD in the hard sciences from a top-tier university, and is no slouch or big-haired overmakeupped televangelist.

We need to understand each other more. I promise you, those are not just ancient tribal holidays now observed for kicks and tradition and posterity's sake--I'm not saying that's your position, though you must admit it's the position of some--they are everlasting ordanances for the world, because the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the G-d of the world, the G-d of everbody.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, though, the celebrations you observe aren't Jewish; they're Christian. You may borrow our dates and names but I find it very hard to believe that you don't use them as an opportunity to celebrate your Christian belief.

Nothing at all wrong in that, of course, and even if there were, it's no concern of mine.

I imagine it's a bit like Japanese Christmas, which is for the vast majority of Japanese, who are not Christians, a strictly secular occasion. Not that your celebrations are secular; I mean only that the Jewish observances are pretty completely divorced from your Christian versions.

Well, if you find spiritual value in what you do, zei gesund! Knock yourself out.

 

No, that's a fair point. Yes, the Jewish observations are divorced from the Messianic meanings I see in them. But next time you hide the afikomen in that little napkin (shroud), next time you notice the piercings in the matzah (pierced like Messiah), next time you imagine the blood of the unblemished lamb that saved the lives of Hebrews and was spread about on the lintels and doorposts in a manner that mirrors perfectly the blood of Messiah as He hung there on that cross, I want you to at least consider that some of those Messianic meanings may not be quite as forced as you might think. That's why I believe the celebrations were given as everlasting ordinances to G-d's Chosen People--to drill into them over the course of many centuries, as they practiced them, what would be His plan for their redemption.

If you're talking about Judaism as a cultural thing only, not a religious thing, not a search for ultimate truth, not a path to get to closer to the Creator, then you're quite right, that's not my thing per se; though I'd still like to learn more about it because I believe that G-d has placed great wisdom in His people and their cultural traditions and still blesses them because he loves them deeply.

You know, all the antisemitism over the centuries has some roots in the truth: G-d does still bless His people and they do often end up on top of whatever culture they are in, a lot of it's just envy. And in spite of that enmity from virtually every nation in the world, in spite of the hideous persecution for almost 40 centuries, in spite of being scattered about all over the world, cut off from one another and Jerusalem, nothing left of the original temple at all, nothing left of the third but a piece of foundation, they endure, they've maintained a distinct cultural identity. They simply cannot be stamped out, even without a nation for over 2500 years, without anything. That's a miracle in and of itself.

Shalom!

 

Um. Okay, if you say so.

 

Beats me.

I'll leave aside your snide language about the Lord's Supper. You're just gonna do that, I guess. The L-rd G-d incarnate said it was His body and His blood and mandated that. Your quarrel is not with me.

Frankly, I don't want to talk about that any more with you. Unlike Nosborne's, the topic stretches your usual civility and there's no point in wrangling. I have seen extraordinary integrity from you elsewhere and I do not characterize you by this one issue.

But please note that Lutherans do NOT believe that God mandated Sunday as the Sabbath. Sunday is its own thing. The "Puritan Sabbath" is unknown among us and puzzles us when we encounter its practice.

 

Beats me.

I'll leave aside your snide language about the Lord's Supper. You're just gonna do that, I guess. The L-rd G-d incarnate said it was His body and His blood and mandated that. Your quarrel is not with me.

Frankly, I don't want to talk about that any more with you. Unlike Nosborne's, the topic stretches your usual civility and there's no point in wrangling. I have seen extraordinary integrity from you elsewhere and I do not characterize you by this one issue.

But please note that Lutherans do NOT believe that God mandated Sunday as the Sabbath. Sunday is its own thing. The "Puritan Sabbath" is unknown among us and puzzles us when we encounter its practice.

 

Who said the article was particularly anti-Scalia, Mr. Wrong Assumption?

 

Re: The L-rd's Supper:

Of course He said it was His body and blood. No denying that, I'm not quarreling with Him. In fact, I wasn't even making a point about transubstantiation anywhere--that's another debate entirely. I was just saying that the historical context of the L-rd's Supper was so wrapped around Pesach, in that it occurred at the Seder, in that there are so many parallels between the actual historical Pesach and the death of Messiah on the cross, that I find it impossible to believe that our modern concept of the L-rd's Supper approaches even remotely the true meaning or the intent of Messiah/Christ when he commanded us to do this in rememberance of Him. I think that any celebration of the L-rd's Supper that does not recognize the context of the Christ as our Passover Lamb misses the point entirely. We are supposed to celebrate the Seder in rememberance of Him, and apparently, per Paul's letter to the Corinthians, it can be celebrated more often than once a year "in rememberance of Me".

BTW Janko:

I think you're viewing me through some pretty rotten lenses. I may get passionate, but I genuinely haven't been angry here at anyone. Perhaps I unwittingly pushed some buttons because of my ignorance of certain issues that are crucial to people who were raised in the church--remember, I was not at all, I just don't have that background, I can't understand what it means as one who was raised in the church. I didn't know that the L-rd's Supper was such a hot spot. I knew it was a big issue to Catholics and those in the Church of Christ (I think), but I really didn't know it was such a touchy issue, sorry if I unwittingly hit people under the belt, I didn't mean to.

I'm certainly not perfect, and I can be a perfect ass at times, but I'm really not as bad, I don't think, as you're portraying me with your posts. I honestly wasn't trying to gratuitously incite Christians or Jews, I was just trying to explain what I believe.

I'm really not one of those guys who graduates from Bob Jones or Liberty who has a paunch, the white short sleeve button up shirts, the crew cut, patent leather shoes (shined by wife/servant)and the perpetual scowl who makes my wife walk a few steps behind me, forces the kids to bring me the slippers, names my daughter "Evangeline", slaps the kids if they mess up their Bible recitations, and believes that everyone who doesn't "rightly divide the Scriptures" as I do is damned to eternal Hell, all the while taking perverse pleasure in the thought.

Truly, that's not me. I sometimes think you're picturing me as that hateful fellow and arguing with him. I'm really "silly 'ol daddy", a little Woody Harrelson-looking guy. In fact, I've been told I act a bit like his character on Cheers--kind of goofy, absent-minded.

Really, Janko, I'm harmless!