Professors with diploma mill degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Neuhaus, Feb 20, 2015.

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  1. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Ahh, you run a meatball HR shop. It all makes sense now. You want to slap a quick validation on them and pass them further down the assembly line.

    No, what you're doing is probably the best course for what you do.

    For the rest of the HR world (I have 87 open reqs right now with an average of about 10-20 applicants per) we don't really have the desire to automate ourselves to that level.

    Hiring managers know what they need. An engineering manager who needs to hire a candidate with a PE qualifying degree knows the requirements for a PE license better than us (because that manager most likely ALSO has a PE license).

    Our job is to ensure that managers are not just hiring everyone from their two favorite schools. Why? Because we don't want managers passing up quality candidates just because they had the audacity to study engineering at Cornell rather than Clarkson University (a company favorite). Also, from an affirmative action standpoint, we need to ensure that managers are recruiting from a diverse pool of applicants. That's a process we drive.

    You've given a lot of suggestions to me earlier in this post. Some were good. Others are creating a mountain out of a mole hill.

    I can count on one hand the number of applicants who walked in with unaccredited degrees in the past five years. They happen. Much more common is claiming an unearned degree (which gets caught in our current screening, flawed as it is).

    You're right, foreign degrees are fairly easy to research to determine if they are legitimate institutions. We accept any USDOE recognized accreditor as well as NYS registered programs (though, I'm not aware of there being an unaccredited but NYS registered program that awards degrees). But, our validation process doesn't really capture this information. We really don't need to change that because the majority of our applicants come from schools which are most certainly accredited and even the casual observer recognizes the school name.

    There are a few. And they are few, relative to the number of applicants we receive, who make us hit "the Google" to see if it's actually a thing (Florida and California Colleges often have the "fakest sounding" names, I find). Those few can be a pain to review but it isn't worth processing.

    Those 87 reqs are just mine. The other business partners have their own stack of work to get through. Maybe you personally have more. Maybe you have less. Maybe you have about the same but your shop likes to try to streamline stuff like this. Hard to say.
     
  2. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Here’s the only semi-NYS example I’m aware of (although not unaccredited, just not RA):

    The Rockefeller University The Rockefeller University is not accredited by any of the six (e.g., MSCHE, NEASC, SACS, WASC, NCA-HLC, or NWCCU) regional accreditation agencies. Its institutional accreditation (NA) is via the New York State Board of Regents, and the Commissioner of Education View Agencies Regents Institutional Accreditation
     
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Good example (though, as you noted, not unaccredited). Some other examples of schools receiving institutional accreditation through the NYS Board of Regents would be the Memorial Sloan Kettering graduate program and formerly Cornell University (though in fairness, they maintained dual institutional accreditation for a long time).

    Every school in NYS is required to be NYS registered. That means that a college offering degrees that is accredited by say, ACICS, is required to be "registered" (separate from their accreditation program). So, for state employment, you might need an RA degree. However, you could also meet the requirement with an NA degree that is registered with NYS (i.e. the school is located here). So it can get a little funny.
     
  4. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Rockefeller University is that [rare] example of a renowned institution that apparently just does not choose and/or need RA as a measure of its academic program/s legitimacy…

    A prominent business school that comes to mind (re seemingly no need /desire for programmatic accreditation) … e.g., the McMaster MBA Business Administration (MBA)
     
  5. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I think the same case can be made for Memorial Sloan Kettering. They have a very reputable biomed doctoral program and are accredited by the NYS Board of Regents.

    But I also hate to burst your bubble; McMaster is AACSB accredited.
     
  6. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Oops ... it's been some time since I've checked the DeGroote School of Business (McMaster MBA program created in 1962 http://mbarecruit.degroote.mcmaster.ca/about-degroote/) website (e.g., AACSB since 2006) AACSB Accreditation - DeGroote School of Business. No bubble burst; yet I appreciate the correction..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2015
  7. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    For your purposes you are probably doing the right thing, but your use of the word substandard is offensive. Your organization has every right to accept degrees only from RA schools, but that doesn't make a NA or even an UA degree substandard. It just makes them unacceptable for employment at your organization, which is perfectly fine.
     
  8. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    >>>Ahh, you run a meatball HR shop. It all makes sense now. You want to slap a quick validation on them and pass them further down the assembly line.

    We just don't waste our time on validation, because it's pass/fail and simple to do from the desktop. We'd rather spend our time on value added by discussing the candidates and their education as part of that discussion once the invalid applicants are out.

    >>>For the rest of the HR world (I have 87 open reqs right now with an average of about 10-20 applicants per) we don't really have the desire to automate ourselves to that level.

    It's faster, cheaper, more consistent, and more reliable than requesting transcripts (which can be altered). It's freed up time to talk to managers.

    >>>Hiring managers know what they need. An engineering manager who needs to hire a candidate with a PE qualifying degree knows the requirements for a PE license better than us (because that manager most likely ALSO has a PE license).

    Single state, one specialty, the manager probably knows. I'm can't tell if you are requiring a certain level of education or a PE, that is two different things. In positions that require a state license, we validate the license. For example, depending on the state, a CPA could have passed the exam under a bachelors requirement or a 150 credit requirement. Either way, they are a CPA, and we check with the licensing board.

    >>> Because we don't want managers passing up quality candidates just because they had the audacity to study engineering at Cornell rather than Clarkson University (a company favorite).

    I'm pretty sure nobody is even implying this. If you've got a pipeline of Cornell grads beating down your door, congratulations!

    >>>I can count on one hand the number of applicants who walked in with unaccredited degrees in the past five years. They happen. Much more common is claiming an unearned degree (which gets caught in our current screening, flawed as it is).

    I've seen dozens of diploma mill degrees circulating through our applicant tracking, but general dishonesty is much more common. Another nice feature of streamlining at the desktop, the check kicks them out if they claim a degree they don't have because it's not a match.


    >>>We really don't need to change that because the majority of our applicants come from schools which are most certainly accredited and even the casual observer recognizes the school name.

    Not true in our instance, tons of online/hybrid/foreign degrees.

    >>>There are a few. And they are few, relative to the number of applicants we receive, who make us hit "the Google" to see if it's actually a thing (Florida and California Colleges often have the "fakest sounding" names, I find). Those few can be a pain to review but it isn't worth processing.

    American Intercontinental University consistently wins the fake name award with managers year in and year out.

    >>>Maybe you personally have more. Maybe you have less. Maybe you have about the same but your shop likes to try to streamline stuff like this. Hard to say.

    Only streamline where it makes sense, stay hands-on where it matters.
     
  9. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    True, and I agree. I think we are just wordsmithing here. But I think the original question was "how do you define substandard?" Meets standard/substandard. So, Valid/invalid for our organization if you prefer.

    I personally reserve "substandard" for the worst of the worst.
     
  10. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    "We also do quite a bit of hiring for accounting and corporate finance.

    HR doesn't have the resources to determine if a degree qualifies the holder to sit for the CPA exam. The accounting department, run by CPAs, does. They have the experience and the resources to determine if a degree is licensure qualifying or not."

    Missed this in the first reading of all the issues. We have many CPA's also. We discussed this years ago with finance/accounting and threw out any job description language that had the words "eligible" or "qualifying" in it, such as "CPA eligible", because technically, I am PhD eligible, and NFL draft eligible! (That's a joke).

    In addition, a degree alone doesn't make you eligible in many states for the CPA exam, it's the number of credits (150) that matter in a lot of states.

    CPA is a state license, 50 states, many CPA managers (who admit they are unfamiliar with many of the online degrees), and many colleges to evaluate. The experience requirement also varies by state. The permutations got out of hand quickly and we were reinventing the wheel every time that it was extremely time wasteful, subjective, and inconsistent. That's not even getting into "eligible" hires who never end up taking the exam.

    Our required criteria:

    Accounting Managers & above - CPA required.
    Staff Accountants (all levels) - Minimum Bachelors degree in Accounting required (add/ or equivalent language).

    Do or Do Not, there is no eligible.
     
  11. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

    I'm aware that CPA is a state license. And the state of New York has determined that, among other things, a degree needs to be either AACSB accredited and/or registered with the state as licensure qualifying in order to sit for the CPA exam.

    So if you roll in with a B.S. and M.B.A. from any number of perfectly legitimate R.A. schools, you are not going to be eligible to sit for the CPA exam and we just aren't interested.

    There are exceptions to that rule but we don't have time to chase down exceptions. We also don't want to hire a person banking on an exception only to be disappointed when the state tells them they are ineligible to sit for the exam and they need to go back to school for a qualifying Masters.

    With respect, this was designed as a general discussion about how individuals would react to a professor with an unaccredited degree. I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me, and my company, how we need to conduct our business based upon your cursory understanding of our policies.

    Our HR department is fairly large at 25 employees (plus seven legal employees). We've also been at this for a while. I appreciate the periodic critique and the helpful hint but this most recent post of your's seems to imply that we are all just a bunch of clueless yokels who don't know how to hire accountants despite the fact that you evidently have NO idea what is required to become a CPA in the state of New York.
     
  12. potpourri

    potpourri New Member

    I totally agree. Unless the State of New York says that it is acceptable all the other states need to go by what the State of New York states. No other state or jurisdiction should have the final word unless the State of New York says it is acceptable.

    Your HR is really informative as to what their standards are and they should be very proud. It is good that you follow what the State of New York states and that is the final word to what is acceptable and approved.

    The poster who has been giving you a hard time needs to read up and follow what the State of New York says when it comes to being a CPA. No other state or jurisdiction has the right to interfere.
     
  13. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    All of our accountants work in the state of New York so, yes, in fact the state of New York is the only relevant authority on the matter for our company.

    No other state or jurisdiction does have the right to tell our company how our CPAs need to be trained.

    And people who don't work for our company really don't have much right telling us that we're screening candidates improperly when they don't understand what we are screening our candidates for (in this case, being eligible to sit for the CPA exam in the state of New York).

    But by all means, tell me how CPA licensure works in Kansas or Rhode Island, both of those being major hubs of commerce and cornerstones of our nation's financial market unlike lowly New York.
     
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Providence RI is a major hub of the New England Mafia . . . does that count?:doh:
     
  15. novadar

    novadar Member

  16. foobar

    foobar Member

    I can tell you that NYS CPA requirements have far more to do with keeping down the number of CPAs in the state than with the quality of education that candidates have. NYS has a long history of licensing requirements that served primarily as a barrier to entry to the profession.
     
  17. potpourri

    potpourri New Member

    Neuhaus has stated what the requirements for the State of New York and how to do a CPA. The thing that matters as Neuheus has pointed out is that the CPA requirements in the State of New York are what matters so no matter where else you live, work, or so forth it is only the State of New York that is relevant to getting your CPA.

    You all need to read up and study what the requirements are for a CPA and follow what the State of New York states. Anyone else who is a CPA in a different jurisdiction or from a different state is 't really a CPA unless they have been approved and met the requirements of the State of New York as Neuhaus has so eloquently stated. All others are just fonies and aren't real CPA's.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  18. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    That is absolutely not what I said.

    During the course of this discussion I shared how my company handles degree validation (i.e., our accounting hiring managers know the requirements to become CPAs in New York, where we are based, better than HR so they handle the "heavy lifting" portion of the degree validation process for accounting new hires.

    AuditGuy then began offering advice about how my HR department should probably be functioning. I was cool with this until he began telling me that it was bunk that my accounting hiring managers knew more about CPA requirements for our state on the basis that, overall, the requirements for CPA licensure are pretty straightforward. I'm sorry, but that isn't cool. For starters, neither AuditGuy nor anyone on this board, has any direct experience with my company. So to tell me that my entire HR department is screwed up because of one's personal opinion of a one line summary of how we do things is really an overreach.

    That was about the time you jumped in and began telling me that NYS CPA standards don't matter, despite the fact that those requirements were the crux of the discussion we were having when you jumped in.

    Speaking in general terms, if you have to pick one state to talk about CPA requirements for, New York isn't a bad state to use as a baseline. New York's requirements are more restrictive (often for the reasons foobar mentioned) than other states. The Sinatra song says it best, "If you can make it here, you'll make it anywhere." Meanwhile, New York does happen to be the city where many of the nation's top firms either have their headquarters or a significant regional presence. Talking about Finance and Accounting degrees in conjunction with New York is, to me, a logical connection (when discussing requirements in general terms) in the same way that we might discuss an agricultural degree in the state of Iowa or Idaho.

    If we are speaking to someone in general terms about becoming a CPA it makes more sense to reference a state like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania or Illinois than to talk about the requirements in say, Kansas. It has to do with where the most (and largest) employers are concentrated among other factors.

    At no point did I ever say that non-New York CPAs were "fonies" (sic). You've clearly misinterpreted what I've said as well as the context of this discussion. I'm going to recommend you go back and read some of the posts leading up to my statements before you make outlandish claims and attempt to put words in my mouth.
     
  19. potpourri

    potpourri New Member

    You need to go back and re-read my posts. I never said that the State of New York requirements don't matter where did you get that from? Where did I state that Neuhaus?! I never said that whatsoever.

    In your posts honestly you do feel very passionately that the only requirements that matter are the State of New York. Otherwise you wouldn't keep repeating that over and over and over and over and over again. That is why you even go so far as to give the example of Frank Sinatra and the song "New York, New York."

    The only way that you will accept a genuine CPA is if it comes from the State of New York whether it be your company or you personally. Why don't you just be honest about it and stop saying things that I didn't state? I was personally defending you to state that I agree that no other certification or credential should be accepted but that from the State of New York. It has to be from the State of New York or it isn't right. State of New York. State of New York. State of New York.
     
  20. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    We were discussing the requirements of a company located in New York State that hires NYS CPAs. In the context of that discussion, non-NYS CPAs are irrelevant. That is not the same thing as saying "the only requirements that matter are the State of New York" in a broader sense.

    Honestly, you aren't making any sense right now. Neither I, nor my company, consider non-NYS CPAs less than "genuine." We hire NYS CPAs because our company is located in New York and for our accountants to practice here they need to have their CPA through the State of New York.

    If we were based in Ohio, then only the Ohio CPA requirements would be relevant to us. It's a legal requirement. Our accountants need to be able to represent our company before the state Department of Tax and Revenue and the IRS, a privilege held by NYS CPAs. Again, if we were located in New Jersey, then we would yield to the requirements of New Jersey to license CPAs and New York requirements would be irrelevant to us.

    Except that I never said that and do not agree with it. Largely because it makes absolutely zero sense. An NYS CPA cannot hold him/herself out as a CPA in the state of Texas. Being an NYS CPA does not allow you to practice public accountancy in the state of Missouri. If you want to be a CPA in those states you need to follow their requirements.

    We were talking about a very specific case involving one specific company which happens to be located in New York.

    I'm really not sure why you are attempting to usurp my words and twist them such as you are.
     

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