PhD vs. Professional Doctorates

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Boethius, Nov 24, 2012.

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  1. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I think a lot of people try to create hard and fast categories for these sorts of things even though real world complexities don't fit into them. In the U.S., the DBA, EdD, DPA, etc., just aren't that different from the PhD.
     
  2. Docere

    Docere Member

    And they don't meet the definition of "professional practice."
     
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    The D.B.A. and D.P.A. never were first-professional degrees. They were created originally as research doctorates.

    To add to the confusion, the Department of Ed has not changed the first-professional degree classification on its "Structure of U.S. Education" website Structure of U.S. Education.
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's not hard.

    The doctorate is an academic degree. In the U.S., they're (mostly) the same: do some courses and write a dissertation. There might be comprehensive exams squeezed in there, too.

    In the UK and elsewhere, there is a distinction made between research degrees (the Ph.D.) and professional degrees (designed for working professionals to do scholarly work on work-related topics and/or in work settings). Research degrees are just that--a "big book" approach to the thesis. No prescribed curriculum. The candidate is assessed on the thesis only. It tends to be big (80-100K words, or even more!). In the professional doctorate, alternative designations are offered (DBA, DSoSci, etc.) and the "little book" approach is taken (coursework and a smaller--50K words--thesis). Some programs allow for non-scholarly work, meaning they permit the student to do work-related research that doesn't necessarily contribute to the academic discipline. But the level of work, the research methods used, and the style of the thesis remain the same.

    The "first professional" degree (not "doctorate"--degree) is awarded to practitioners in certain professions in order to enter them. Diplomaism (degree inflation) has set in, so now most are earning degrees called "doctor" to enter their respective professions (in the U.S.). The MD, JD, DO, etc. In the UK, entry into these professions is still done with a bachelor's, including medicine. These disciplines also have higher degrees available.

    Is a first professional degree a doctorate? Kinda yes, a little no. Yes because the title "doctor" is conferred and, in some cases, the holder is called "doctor." But a little no because these degrees represent the entry-level education of practitioners (although usually beyond the traditional bachelor's). In the law, for example, one earns a master of laws after having earned the JD. Also, they are not scholarly--no research or scholarship is undertaken by the student.

    It is a mistake to confuse "first professional degrees" with "professional doctorates." They are entirely different entities. As for the doctorate, the distinctions around "professional doctorates" (like the EdD or DBA) are largely immaterial. In the UK, however, the differences between professional and scholarly doctorates is very real, and the Ph.D. remains the pinnacle of academic accomplishment for students. This may change in the future as professional doctorates gain more and more recognition.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2013
  5. Docere

    Docere Member

    They do have some 7-year combined BS/MD programs in the US. In the UK most take 6-year MBBS degrees I believe but there are also 4-year Graduate Entry programs for those with degrees in biological sciences.
     
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree with you but wanted to share the link below that shows the distinction between an Executive doctorate and a PhD

    ExecutiveDBA.org | Executive Doctoral Degree – Academic PhD Comparison

    If we go by the comparison, all the DL PhDs or DBA are really executive doctorates that are meant to train professionals and not academics. I really don't think it matters PhD, DBA, DM, etc but the format and objective of the program. In few words, if you want to become an academic, the full time residential program is the way to go. If you are a professional that just needs the doctorate for professional development and to teach on the side, the executive doctorate in short residency or online format is the way to go.

    Notice that some executive doctorates are PhDs like the PhD in Business for executives given by Oklahoma state.


    ExecutiveDBA.org | Members

    In the UK and Australia, the PhD is mainly to train academics while the professional doctorates are for executives. The main reason is that executives do not really want to become academics, in the UK salaries for academics are substantially lower than in the US so it is rare that someone goes for a PhD so the DBA makes more sense as the executives might see it as a different product with some value for executive positions that pay better. Also, in the UK you don't need an MBA to do a PhD, a B.Sc can do a PhD so the DBA makes more sense for someone that already has an MBA. Some people in the UK actually look at the DBA as being more prestigious if it is granted by an executive school like Henley College as it requires an MBA. Bear in mind that MBAs in the UK have a research component even they are considered a professional degree.

    In the US is different, many of the people doing DBAs, DM, etc have the objective to become faculty but the professional orientation of the program is more suitable for people that graduated long time ago and rather do a more applied dissertation. In the US it seems that DBA, DM, DAnything are basically lighter versions (in the sense that course work and dissertation are not so theoretical) of the PhD. Many schools do not hire DBAs for faculty as they do not consider them at the same level as PhDs in particular if the position requires research.
     
  7. Docere

    Docere Member

    Where does the Psy.D. degree fit in? In some ways it seems more like a professional practice degree for clinical psychology but it often does involve a dissertation making it perhaps akin to the Ed.D.
     
  8. Boethius

    Boethius Member

    Very insightful. Thank you. So it’s really about knowing the objectives of each doctorate and our traditional PhD holders in the USA being insecure about other academic doctorates encroaching upon their turf (the ivory tower). You would think these knowledge producers would know the differences.

    Also, have you guys heard of webinars? Just kidding, I know you know about webinars! (Drum-roll . . ) Taah-daah!!! Webinar is distance learning! Lots of training that should be done face to face in my agency has been converting traditional trainings to webinar format and I’m sure this has been going on a lot longer in the private sector. There are pluses and minuses to this but it’s working and cutting costs.

    My point is that DL is has become ubiquitous in education field in both public and private sectors. I can’t help the feeling that there is some hypocrisy going on about this, especially from the traditional PhD holders in the ivory tower. But then again, I’m preaching to the choir in this forum.

    Ok. I’m off my soap box. Rant over.
     
  9. Docere

    Docere Member

    Another difference in the UK is that they're less inclined to call virtually anything post-baccalaureate a "master's" like in the US. In between the bachelor's and master's is postgraduate certificates and diplomas.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2013
  10. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I led a research team that investigated the required curriculum for all of the AACSB, ACBSP and IACBE doctoral programs in business management in the U.S. (over 100 programs) and the terminal degrees of faculty at nearly 600 business graduate programs. Our findings did not support your conclusions above. Overall, the D.B.A. programs were not very different from the Ph.D. programs (though the D.M. programs were). Over 350 business management faculty had the DBA as their terminal degree. In other related disciplines (accounting, IT management, supply chain management) the number of faculty with DBAs was much higher.

    The website that you referenced, while interesting, is from a small international group with only member 21 universities--8 of which are U.S. universities. While this small group may adhere to a definition that would limit academic doctorates only to full-time face-to-face programs, it is definitely not a widely applied model across U.S. academia
     
  11. Boethius

    Boethius Member

    I love this forum! You guys are great!
     
  12. Boethius

    Boethius Member

    Georgia State University's DBA program (It costs 100k!!!) summarizes the comparison nicely between an Executive DBA and Phd in Business. I would say the comparison can apply to all other industry-type doctorates and their PhD counterparts.
     
  13. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    I'll agree with you to an extent because GSU is involved with the DBA council. However the degree you linked is not a DBA; it's an EDB. If they wanted it to be lumped in with the DBA argument, they'd call it that. This is clearly a professional doctorate not intended for academia by its own measure.

    It wasn't so long ago that HBS only gave out DBAs because only the GSAS could give out Ph.Ds. Things change over time, but I think that the student really determines the utility and value of his or her terminal degree by whatever he or she does with it.
     
  14. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    I'll agree with you to an extent because GSU is involved with the DBA council. However the degree you linked is not a DBA; it's an EDB. If they wanted it to be lumped in with the DBA argument, they'd call it that. This is clearly a professional doctorate not intended for academia by its own measure.

    It wasn't so long ago that HBS only gave out DBAs because only the GSAS could give out Ph.Ds. Things change over time, but I think that the student really determines the utility and value of his or her terminal degree by whatever he or she does with it.
     
  15. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    You are correct. In fact the reason that the DBA exists in the first place is that Harvard Business School wanted to award its own doctorates and the College of Arts and Sciences is the only entity are Harvard that could award the Ph.D. The Ed.D. exists for precisely the same reason (except it was the Harvard School of Education that wanted its own doctorate).
     
  16. Boethius

    Boethius Member

    Yes, I was in error of indicating DBA instead of EDB. However, doesn’t it depend on how a college positions their DBA program on the spectrum between applied to theoretical? Granted, Harvard Business School wanted their own doctorate which was equivalent to a PhD. Do all other colleges do the same for there DBA? I can’t imagine an EDB without their being some A in the curriculum or professional work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2013
  17. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    You are absolutely correct. At all levels, programs at different colleges and universities (and often within the same institution) may different significantly. Accrediting agencies may dictate some program parameters (such as minimum number of units), but the focus and emphasis of the curriculum and where it lies on the research versus application continuum is largely up to the program leadership and faculty.
     
  18. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    You are correct within the limits of your argument. I'd like to add a couple of points to consider in addition to programmatic position:

    1. When looking for a position, how many people are you competing with that have a "known quantity credential" and similar or better pub records.
    2. How well the hiring committee does its due diligence or just eliminates candidates that don't fit something they're familiar with.

    It's one thing to say that you have an equivalent credential. It's another to have others agree with you or listen to you. If people ask and do their work, and your degree is equivalent or better.. then there's no issue. The better schools with lots of candidates often don't execute search as thoroughly as we'd prefer.
     
  19. Boethius

    Boethius Member

    This is reality. The point is how many who are considering an online (or blended delivery) doctorate understand this? Ultimately, it depends on what you do with your doctorate, earned either by DL or traditional means.

    I've known very productive Masters holders and unproductive Doctorate holders. A "known quantity" doctorate will open doors and add prestige to the occupation and organziation but how productive are they, have been, or will be? I would say the same goes for DL doctorates: how productive are you or will you be once you earn your degree? Will you provide any evidence of your doctoral skills? I suspect we will always have human bias, familiarity, and preferences towards what is considered the norm. Today it's the traditional, theory-based doctoral degree but tomorrow it will be a DL doctorate with broader utility in various settings other than the Ivory Tower. Personally, I've always been of proponent of hard work tipping the scales in favor of what is perceived not to be the norm.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2013

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