Oxbridge MA degrees

Re: Shocking

Why? For the vast majority of Oxford MAs, the MA follows a BA and, as far as the University is concerned, replaces the BA, i.e. you cannot claim to have both a BA and an MA from Oxford. You hold only one or the other. The resume should make the situation clear - they would need to specify when they were awarded the BA and what the degree classification was for that BA. Stating when they received the MA is merely a statement of fact. One clear distinction is that a BA is awarded in a particular subject, the MA has no subject.

Malcolm S Jenner

 

Thisis why?

The UK QAA and Oxford itself says that the MA is not an academic qualification, people who present is as such are not suppose too.

 

MJ is right

Malcolm Jenner (MA, Oxon) is quite correct. I've been in the academic and the business worlds all my life. Anyone having an Oxford or Cambridge MA (including senior academics) will usually put on their cv/resume something like:

Bachelor of Arts (BA), (Modern History), University of Oxford 1967.
Master of Arts (MA), matriculated, Oxford 1976

They will not specify a subject because the MA is not an award gained following a period of study.

In Scotland, after a course lasting 4 years, graduates emerge from the older Scottish universities with an MA degree.

This is all to do with 'history' and, as someone has already noted, only in the UK do surgeons drop the title 'Dr' then they become consultants having gained the Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons (FRCS), the letters of which they rapidly put behind their names. This stated, remember that medical doctors in Great Britain do not exit medical school with an MD! They exit with the degrees (after 5 -7 years) of Bachelor Medicine (MB) and Bachelor of Surgery (ChB) and so they are granted the 'honorary' title of 'doctor'. Likewise with dental suregons. They exit with a Bachelor of Dental Surgery (BDS). The DDS degree does not exist (yet) in the UK. However, it is interestign to note that younger qualifying dental surgeons are starting to use the title 'Dr' to be on par (title-wise) with their US counterparts. This is especialoly notable among the young ethnic person qualifying as dentists in the UK. The MD degree is a 'doctorate' degree in British universities standing alongside the PhD, etc. In some universities it is regarded as a higher doctorate in medicine once you've done a PhD!

This may or may not be of interest to readers!

 

Telfax

Now come on, you are not saying someone should pass off an Oxford or Cambridge MA as an academic qualification in itself?

 

No, I am not saying this at all! Read what I have written! The Oxbridge MA is seen, by those 'in the know' as a 'step up' that allows the holder to be able to vote and be a member of various university committees! Oxford and Cambridge are unlike any other university institutions in the world. They have archaic practices, routed in history, and only MA holders, for example, can vote on certain university matters. Here is an example - when it was voted on as to whether Margaret Thatcher should be awarded an honorary doctorate degree by Oxford. The committee making the decision (made up of all Oxford MAs) voted against it, even though the Oxford University authorities had agreed she should be awarded the honorary degree! She never did get it! By the way, I am not a Cambridge or Oxford graduate and I would do away with the MA award practice at both universities. That is why it is important to note that when the MA is granted the word 'matriculated' is often used!

 

Mr. Telfax reports that the common CV listing is something like "Master of Arts (MA), matriculated, Oxford 1976."

We point out in Bears' Guide that this 'automatic' Master's used to be done by Harvard and Yale as well, but they stopped decades ago. But Lingua Franca magazine (RIP) reported that those two schools offer an automatic Master's to newly-hired faculty members who (even if they have a Ph.D. elsewhere) do not happen to have a degree from their schools, so that all faculty can claim at least one degree from their school. Wonder if and how people list those on their CV?

 

Quircky

I guess this is all part of the 'quirkiness' of the two systems! I've always been amazed, for example, as to what the Archbishop of Canterbury can and cannot do re degree awards. Many of the ancient cathedrals in England require canons to have an Oxbridge MA. In days gone by most did! These days less so. When someone is promoted to be a canon in a prestigious catherdal and they don't have a degree, they are usually awarded an honorary Lambeth MA degree or a doctorate by the Archbishop. This has 'muddied the waters' a little because there is now a scheme whereby you can earn a Lambeth MA by producing a 50,000 words research dissertation under the supervision of a board of faculty member approved by the Archbishop. These people are usually full-time theology faculty members at the UKs older universities (Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, London, etc). When it comes to getting your Lambeth degree the robes are those of the Archbishop's own university! The present Archbishop (George Carey) has his PhD from London and never went to Oxbridge but he (or someone decided for him!) decided not to opt for London and continued with his predecessor's university - Oxford!!! Surprise, surprise!! So, if you get a Lambeth MA, it appears, you walk round, if you so wish, wearing Oxford MA degree robes! Likewise if you receive a Lambeth DD, DCL, or whatever, you are entitleds to wear Oxford robes! The difference is for the Labeth Diploma of Student in Theology (STh). This is equivalent to a first degree in theology at Oxford or Cambridge. It can be taken by purely written examination or by research thesis if you are already a graduate in theology/religious studies. STh holders have a specific hood and gown relevant to the award. Why they've never made it a BD or BTh is beyond me! What is also interesting for the earned Lambeth MA is that candidates must be prepared to swear an oath of alliegiance to the Queen! Now, I know she is head of the Church in England....but! I'm not a lawyer, but I wonder whether this requirement is illegal under European Union (especially human rights law enacted just over one year ago thast the UK has to implement) law!!!! Hope someone finds this interesting!

 

telfax:

what is your source or reference?

adelheid

 

Life experience!

My last comments re Oxbridge degrees and the Lambeth degrees are based on information you pick up during the period of your lifetime - things you've read and remebererd, etc. In addition, the one of the leading authorities on academic dress in the UK is a Dr G Shaw, former head of science at Lancing College (a top public [private] school for 11-8 year olds) who has published twice now on the history and design of academic robes. His latest book starts with the Lambeth robes business. He is also a graduate of Oxford (DPhil). As to the Lambeth earned degrees (STh, MA) - information can be obtained from the Secretary to the Lambeth Degree Committee (earned) who is a canon up at Durham Cathedral and an academic (PhD) himself. Don't have the exact details to hand at present. The notes he sends out mention the oath of allegiance.

Each year the Archbishop confers the earned and honorary degrees at a special ceremony in the chapel of Lambeth Palace -his London home.

If anyone is really interested I can probably lay my hands ont he informtion some in my stored files!

 

Fascinating discussion.

North

 

telfax:
yes, indeed a fascinating discussion. If you get any more information, please do not forget to post us.
adelheid

 

Re: MJ is right

Matriculation at Oxford is when you START your degree course. I matriculated in 1965, took BA in 1968, Certificate in Education 1969 and MA in 1972 (7 years after matriculation - the earliest time unless one has already been awarded DPhil).

I variously list this as

BA, Honours Mathematics, 1968
MA, 1972

or

MA, 1972 (previously BA Honours Mathematics 1968)

Since one usually also specifies the period and place of study (in my case, for example, this would be: Jesus College, Oxford, 1965-1968) this should make things reasonably clear.


Malcolm S Jenner

MA (Oxon)
MSc (CNAA)
DipMus (Open)

 

Re: Quircky

The Oxford BD is actually a HIGHER degree. It is currently only open to Oxford graduates and requires a previous qualification in Theology (a good Bachelor's degree or equivalent, e.g. the BD qualifying examination). It is one of very few degrees at Oxford that can be taken without a specified period of residence, merely by submission of a dissertation and attendance at a viva voce examination. It was historically intended for clergy who wished to pursue academic work alongside parish work.


Malcolm S Jenner

 

Kane? ...KANE??

Would you have us to believe that if YOU had an Oxford MA you would not list it?

 

Re: Re: Shocking

Kane wrote:

I am amazed some people would have the nerve to post an Oxford MA on their resume as an academic qualification. That might be construed as fraud.

That's not the point, is it?

What matters isn't "as far as the university is concerned". What Kane is talking about is "as far as the rest of the world outside the university is concerned".

Few people, even in the academic world, will have the slightest clue that this traditional and peculiar practice of Oxford's even exists. When they see an individual listing an MA from Oxford, they will interpret that to mean the same sort of thing that an MA from UCLA or the University of Chicago would mean.

The thread on the 'off-topic' forum about the English immigrant school teacher in New Zealand who demanded the higher pay commensurate with his holding a masters degree illustrated the intentional abuse of these titles wonderfully.

 

Re: Kane? ...KANE??

If there wasn't a tremendous difference between *should* and *would*, we would have far less need for police.

Hell, I'd certainly be tempted. But then, nobody has ever accused me of having any ethics.

 

Oxford again!

Malcolm Jenner is quite right about the Oxford BD (Bachelor ofDivinity). In fact, a number of British universities (Cambridge, Manchester, etc) used to offer the BD as an 'advanced' or 'higher' postgraduate degree. London Universioty has always offered it as a first degree, similar to a BA, BEd or whatever. Oxford would seem to have dropped the BD as a higher degree, as indeed has Manchester, Cambridge, etc. The Irish universities also used to offer the BD as a higher degree. I think this is all to do with the various Uk government agencies wanting to bring all the various degree designations into line with each other! However! If you go to Oxford's Faculty of Theology web site page you'll find that the postgraduate degrees are MPhil, MSt, MTh and two postgraduate diplomas - all are taken by classes, course work and a dissertation. The MLitt and DPhil are earned purely by thesis (MLitt, 50,000 words and DPhil 100,000 words). Then, in 'small print' it states that someone with a good first degree (in any subject and from any university) who wants to study theology at the undergraduate level may apply to do so with 'Senior Status'. This means you can complete the degree in two years rather than the normal three (full-time). There is then added a sentence or two that tells you that although this is essentially an undergrduate (first) degree it will eventually lead to the award of an MA!!! Well, it will, providing you keep your head down and pay the fee some years after you've graduated! Go to: http:www.theology.ox.ac.uk/pg/pgcourse.shtml

Interesting!

 

Oxbridge MAs are a tradition that probably won't change any time soon.

My dear wife's great-great-great grandfather, George Francis Heming, graduated from Cambridge with a BA in 1792 and an MA in 1795.

He was a Church of England clergyman.

I think that MAs are granted for undergraduate work only by reason of tradition created when Oxford and Cambridge were the only universities in England. I do, however, suspect that a 3 year Oxbridge BA may be equivalent to a 4 year BA or better from most schools on this side of the Atlantic.

25 years ago the brother-in-law of a co-worker of mine(close personal friend??) missed a week at Oxford for his father's funeral and was convinced he had blown the year.

I suspect these English schools expect the student to actually master what they are taught.

 

Hey Peter

PETER WROTE: "Would you have us to believe that if YOU had an Oxford MA you would not list it?"

MY RESPONSE: Yes I would list it BUT!!! I would list it as this.

BA, University of Oxford, 2002
MA (Honourary) University of Oxford, 2005

Technically, the Oxford MA is not called "honourary" but in essence and spirit it is the equivalent. No, I cannot even say that as IT IS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR!. But "honourary" will keep me out of a fraud charge.

Read part of Bills post "The thread on the 'off-topic' forum about the English immigrant school teacher in New Zealand who demanded the higher pay commensurate with his holding a masters degree illustrated the intentional abuse of these titles wonderfully."

The thread is www.nzqa.co.nz

 

Re: Hey Peter

They have always been treated equal to our bachelors degree according to NOOSR.

Ths is really getting up your nose KANE AND not all are ABLE to get an Oxford degree ...

... what is the real reason for your angst? Did you catch an MA[Oxon} intruder once who got off?