Opinion: US Students should stick with RA programs

As far as Australian degrees go you could regard a PhD as a DL degree. However, i notice that at several institutions the emphasis is being firmly put on 'collegiality' in the research experience and 'doctoral colloquia' as emphasising one aspect of the rigour.

In the EdD at Latrobe (5 KM away), you are required to 'audit' lower degree level classes as a research observer, and are expected to attend most of the Thursday lunchtime presentations. This is where the candidates present their research outlines, findings and papers. The experience of that either as a participant or observer, is an integral part of the process, and any who miss it miss a very important part of the degree process. I have found it very stimulating and rigorous.

With UNE (1,600 KM away), there are site visits and meetings with supervisors at agreed locations. But in addition to that, conference calls are the order of the day, and meetings with local academics. Equally as beneficial but in another context.

Those who opt for pure research non attendance DL Doctorates here, will be indentifying themselves by the institution that they have chosen, as only a few universities will entertain pure DL. This pattern is becoming very clearly established, and although we are leaders in DL globally, a difference at the top end courses is emerging. The ability to negotiate out of attendance is nowhere near as easy as it was.

Another point to consider before you decide on an Australian DL higher degree is assessing what you are really getting. Is the particular faculty you are studying with recognised or respected globally in its area and where have the academics come from, gone on to, and where are they invited as visiting professors. The final test will be who your international external examiners are going to be - a mate of your professors, or a leader in the discipline area.

It may be cheaper out here, but if you don't finish, like a high percentage of the candidates out here, or the underlying culture is more than you can adapt to, or you do finish, but with a degree that clearly is way down the list even here, what have you really achieved?

Personally, I think that you need far more compelling reasons than cost to do a degree from here.

Peter French

Peter French

 

That's it right there. As long as someone is happy with a non-US research doctorate and it meets their needs, does it really matter if someone with an RA DL doctorate is laughing at them> As someone else pointed out, those RA DL people are being laughed at by those with residential doctorates from state universities, who are being laughed at by those from private universities, who are being laughed at by those from Ivy universities, who are being laughed at by everyone else for being so pompous.

Many years ago I decided that I really didn't care what people thought of me, take me as I am or don't...it doesn't matter to me. I've found my life is a lot simpler and more enjoyable this way.


Bruce

P.S....I think the other major tax LLM is at Boston University.

 

Its somewhat reciprocal, isn't it Bruce? I guess everyone gets to laugh at someone, huh, i.e., if one is prone to do such things.

Russell

 

I've found that I enjoy laughing at myself more than anyone! It keeps things in perspective, and prevents me from taking myself too seriously.


Bruce

 

One can tell from viewing a history of my posts [ ], that I too enjoy humor, sarcasm, pun and the like. However, my wife has told me for years that my humor is somewhat dry. Ahhhhh, but the delight of poking fun at degree mills is one of life's simple pleasures. And hopefully someone will see through the humor and choose a substantive program.

Russell

 

Well Rev Fr Dr Morris, being a holey, sorry i mean holy man, it is probably the only poking that you get )

PF

 

I shall probably carry this torch alone, Peter, but here goes. One of the characteristics of education should be that one is able to effectively communicate, without resorting to off-color banter, and to dialogue in a civil manner. The use of profanity, vulgarity, expletives, off-color statements, etc., actually reveals a lack of personal discipline. Does the use of such terminology lend credence to one's point of view? No, it reveals one's lack of discipline. It is sad that so many people have disciplined themselves to earn graduate degrees, but have never disciplined their vocabulary.

Blessings,

Russell

 

You don't say it, but you understand it - very interesting difference - I wonder how that can be?

Peter

 

You know how to throw a water balloon, don't you? Do you continuously throw them, randomly throw them, occasionally throw them, never throw them, or only throw them at wedding parties? Why?

 

Pre-conversion terminology, my dear Peter, is where the understanding originates. Post-conversion discipline keeps me from continuing to use it.

An old aboriginal saying says it best, "One may learn bad behavior, but one may also learn not to continue in it."

Russell

 

Hey, Pete. You've been blessed! That must be a first!

Kind regards,

------------------
Peter Tucker
Australia

 

)

Not every cage rattler gets blessed, and it is by some real fair dinkum religos too!

Peter French

 

Hi Peter,
Good points. I don't know much about the Australian system but I recognize good points when I see them. I snipped more than a half of the post but I believe that all of them together constitute a valuable advice for anyone who is interested in an Australian DL PhD.
Having said that, I honestly believe that Tom did his homework very well before he made his choice. I am sure that he understands all the issues that are involved. He is by no means looking for an easy PhD. Cost may also not be the only factor that he considered. We should all wish him good luck in his PhD pursuit. Four or five years from now, he will tell us about his post PhD experience. If his experience is a good one, I am sure that others will follow his foot steps. It could be that Tom is a trailblazer. His decision today may open new windows for others tomorrow.

Ike

 

Thank you, sir! I hope so.

(And hey, if things do go badly, I can always keep a Woody Allen-style journal of my experiences--The Ph.D. That Ate Tom Head or somesuch--and send it off to a publisher.)

How goes your research, BTW?


Cheers,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

co-author, Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning (Ten Speed Press)
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Well Tom, you and I have corresponded back channel on this topic and you have made the best choice for Tom Head and that is what matters. You have done your evaluation quite thoroughly, and I hope that others take notice of this. I wish you every success.

Yesterday I received a copy of an initial draft of a paper for comment, from an academic I have served on a professional panel with. It is by a foreign student from the US, and I think that the person will be graciously asked to withdraw. It is clearly a case of not being ready for the level of study required. I blame the University for accepting the aspirant into the PhD program without vetting the Masters degree.

If this person had been a realist and checked their masters 'research project' with the PhDs produced within this faculty, they would not have proceeded, as the gap is huge.

An Australian PhD isn't everything, isn't necessarily realistic, and isn't for everyone. The US coursework PhD has a lot of merit, and currently it is being considered here as a viable option. At this stage there are a couple 'on trial' but due to the rules, only the thesis part is assessed for the PhD. A crazy process? - a lot of things are crazy out here.

A good question is simply this - if it wasn't cheaper, would you ever consider Australia?

Peter French

 

Exactly.

When I was in law school at NYU, there were students there who found it reassuring to snub their noses at students at schools with lesser reputations, as though it somehow made them better lawyers. In the meantime, I'm sure there were students at Harvard and Yale law schools who regarded NYU as their "safety" school.

I agree that for most people considering DL programs, RA is the route to go. But those who possess RA DL degrees should avoid strutting around like peacocks, because there are a helluva lot of people (ignorant, I'd say, but some powerful nevertheless) who don't think much of those degrees -- and I'm not talking solely about pointy-headed geeks in academe.

Despite all the progress made in the DL world in the U.S. over the past two decades, we should not assume that some traditionalist backlash against even RA DL degrees is out of the question. We're still in an era where the road between, say, Union and Columbia Pacific, is much shorter than the road between Union and Princeton.

 

First, special thanks to Peter; without his encouragement and knowledge that this sort of thing had, in fact, been done, I would never have even considered Australian schools a possibility until about 10 months ago, and my search would have been set back quite a bit.

Absolutely. While price was definitely a consideration, there are other advantages that made them always seem to stand out:

1) The willingness of certain schools to offer students the opportunity to undertake a wholly nonresidential research program. This is a significant point for me.

2) The Australian academic environment, which allows me to work with pretty much whomever I like at a given university; if it were completely possible to do a nonresidential doctorate at the University of Sydney, for example, I'm quite confident I could have gotten Edward Crangle as a mentor. And when I looked into Australian Catholic University, it was the chair of the philosophy-and-theology subfaculty, Tony Kelly, who encouraged me to give this idea a try (and though I ended up choosing a different school later, I'd like to think that I will again cross paths with Australian Catholic University, perhaps as a remote supervisor or online lecturer).

The rigorous dissertation requirements actually appeal to me because I'm looking at (I hope) a very long and prosperous writing career, and I want to be sure I have world-class research skills. There seems to be no easy way to acquire them, but an Australian Ph.D. program should do the trick.

I should mention here that I'm not entirely certain I'll actually make the cut and finish the program--there's always a possibility I won't, and I won't be completely miserable if things don't work out. But I'm eager to give this a try and see what becomes of it, and having seen some Australian dissertations, I really do believe I'm up to this. (It'll be challenging, but I love challenges.)


Cheers,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

co-author, Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning (Ten Speed Press)
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

I am almost half-way to the finishing line but life is getting tougher at Nova. At this point nothing is guranteed, but I will keep trying my best. Thanks for asking.

Ike

 

Tom - that negative bit is a complete load of crap! With your determination, positive attitude, and comfortable feeling of what you have chosen you will change the record books.

There are 2 essentials - realism and motivation. I do think that they come in that order (research thesis someone!). Realism relates to an assessment of your self and your capabilities both positively and negatively. That conclusion alone should be a sufficient motivation, but you have to build on that to keep it going or the gloss wears thin. From my observation with students in the area, one thing about a research PhD as opposed to coursework ,is that it is progressive and when chopped down into its constituent chunks, the next chapter is the motivator.

Tom - you will do just fine.

Peter

 

My sentiments as well concerning my choice of Potchefstroom. Price was definitely a consideration, but there were other aspects which I found appealing:
1) 100% non-residential, although one could negotiate a FTF component if one chose to.
2) Promoters from two different institutions, therefore, a broader range of input.
3) Credibility/Recognition of degree.

Russell