Online/DL LLB List

I saw you posting in a couple of threads and you seem to have the most knowledge on this subject. i have to be careful when using the term realistic from now on but I'm trying to figure out a couple of things and here's where I am at this point.

Starting in August I will be attending via DL Penn State's graduate Program in Homeland Security/Public Health Preparedness. I will be taking 6 hours (2 courses) each semester until I've completed the program. This is a field I'm already established in and have been for roughly 15 years. I'm not saying it's going to be easy but I don't think it's going to be as rough as it would be for someone without the background already.

With that said I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to take LLB courses as well, or if it's going to be an overload. I will not jeopardize my master's because of wanting to do this which is why I'm just talking it out at this point. My background is also in law enforcement and I've worked cases with attorney's on a regualr basis helping them prepare cases for court. In that sense I'm very familiar with the process. What I don't have experience in is EVERYTHING else in law.

I'm also concerned about the utility of an LLB-->LLM-->Bar Exam route in only Florida and Louisiana. I've checked Louisiana and they will accept an ABA LLM in order to sit the bar, but I'm going to have to read through and make sure I didn't miss any small details. I haven't checked Florida yet.


Again, I'm not considering taking both programs full time which I know is not possible, but I'm thinking that since I'm taking 6 hours graduate work that it may be possible to take a course or two with an LLB. Maybe not though which is why I'm soliciting opinions. hanks for your detailed response. I appreciate it!

 

I'm still having editing issues so I have to start a new post but I wanted to add that I have no illusions that this is easy by any stretch. Law at a B&M is hard as hell so I imagine DL Law to be exceptionally difficult. I'm trying to come up with a time on how much each course would require me to study per week. Thanks!

 

You might want to check into whether an LLB from a UK schoool would actually be a hindrance when it comes to taking the bar in Lousiana.

 

Why do you think it would be a hindrance? It would be a non-issue. As we have already established, the LLB alone would not be enough to sit for any bar exam, it is a foreign law degree based on a different legal system. After earning the LLB you would have to do an LLM at a university in the US to be aloud to sit for the bar. A lot of LLM's are designed specifically for attorneys with foreign credentials to qualify to take the Bar.

 

Thanks for your reply. I am really not that knowledgeable about using a LLB to qualify to practice law in the US, I have looked at a it a bit out of curiousity, but I'm not any sort of expert.

I am not crazy about doing two degrees simultaneously, but some people make it work so I guess it's an individual thing.

I would not really suggest doing more than 1 law course at first along with the other degree program. At least this would allow you to gauge the time you need to manage both programs.

In terms of what program I would suggest you find a program that will allow you to take courses individually. UoL will not, so I would rule them out. Huddersfield you take one course at a time but it's accelerated, that sounds tough but may work. I went to Northumbria and liked it so take what I say here with a grain of salt, but they will allow to take one or two courses at a time. You can defer the exams for pretty much any reason you want, so if you think you can't make it, you have the option to defer. They have two exam sittings (beginning and end of Summer) and I think you can easily just defer your exam to the later sitting. That was how it worked when I was there, so you should double check all this. The exam flexibility is a great thing. They were also adding lots of online lectures just at the time I was finishing, and the price was right.

I would stress that you should really check every program against your requirements and pick the one that is right for you. London would seem to be an awful choice for you, considering they have zero flexibility.

In terms of state bars, I am pretty sure the LLB to LLM route is a no go in Florida.

Edit to add: I just looked at the "Comprehensive Guide to Bar Admission Requirements 2010" at Chart X and it does not look good for Louisiana. I would suggest contacting the State Bar directly to be sure.


Best of luck.

 

It may in fact be a non-issue, however, Lousiana's civil code is based on the Napoleonic Code, so, then again, it may be.

 

I realize that Louisiana law is based on civil law, not English common law, but it still would not be a hindrance. The requirements are similar to any other state, if you have an LLB, you need an LLM to sit for their state bar.

 

From what I've read so far the Louisiana & Florida Bar Exam can be taken by lawyers already practicing law with a law degree from another country. Even then the requirements are many including petitioning a committee to review your qualifications. Also just a quick fact but the ABA does not accredit LLM's. Not really that big of a deal but I just thought it should be noted. Ah well...

 

I meant in actually passing the bar rather than mere eligibility to take it, but it could also be that Lousiana's civil code has moved closer to common law over time.

 

That is fair, but I would say that almost no one, regardless of the law school they attended, could pass a state Bar exam without studying extensively. Most people take several months to prepare because laws differ so much from state to state. Here are the passage statistics from 2009 by state (I think it is really interesting at how many of the "repeaters" fail the second time around).
http://www.ncbex.org/fileadmin/mediafiles/downloads/Bar_Admissions/2009_Stats.pdf

Louisiana law schools let you choose between taking a civil law track or a common law track (I know they offer this at Tulane and I believe LSU's law school does as well). You can choose the track depending on where you want to practice (inside or outside the state of LA).

 

I just wanted to update the thread to say that as of yet I haven't found any more programs that fit the criteria. i did find something interesting while doing a bit of job searching. I came across several postings that had LLB's and LLM's as qualifying degrees toward their minimum requirements. I know that an LLM is a master's but at least there does seem to be some utility to an LLB/LLM outisde of practicing law.

Also, after reading a bit more unless I'm misunderstanding the Louisiana Bar requirements an LLB/LLM simply will not allow you to sit. Florida is a definite no go as well. Ah well i thought it was a unique way to try and practice law by using DL means, but I have no desire to sit and take the bar in New York or California.

JBJunior, have you come up with any ideas?

 

I did some more reading and found this on the Louisiana State Bar website:

SECTION 6. Equivalency Determinations.

(A) Application. An applicant who has graduated from a law school that is not located in the United States or its territories must submit an application to the Committee for an equivalency determination. Such application shall be in addition to all other applications required by this Rule. Equivalency applicants who wish to sit for the July bar examination shall submit an equivalency application to the Committee no later than December 1 of the calendar year preceding the July bar examination. Applicants who wish to sit for the February bar examination shall submit an equivalency application no later than August 1 of the calendar year preceding the February bar examination. [Effective November 15, 2000] </p> <p>(B) Standard; Burden of Proof. The applicant shall bear the burden of proving that the legal education of the applicant is equivalent to that of the legal education offered in the United States or its territories by a law school accredited by the American Bar Association. The American Bar Association standards for accreditation of law schools shall be relevant to any equivalency determination.

In addition, the applicant shall bear the burden of proving that the applicant has successfully completed a minimum of 14 semester hours of credit, or the equivalent, in professional law subjects from an American law school in any of the following categories: Constitutional Law, Contracts, Louisiana Obligations Law, Criminal Law, Corporations or Business Organizations, Evidence, Intellectual Property, Federal Civil Procedure, Louisiana Civil Procedure, Taxation, Uniform Commercial Code, and Torts, provided that no more than 4 credit hours in any one subject shall be counted toward this requirement. [Amended effective January 1, 2009]

(C) Equivalency Determination Panel. Subsequent to receiving recommendations from the dean or chancellor of each ABA accredited law school in this state, the Court shall appoint one faculty member from each law school to serve on the Equivalency Determination Panel. Initial appointments shall be for one, two, three, or four year terms of office. Thereafter, terms of office for panel members shall be for four years. No panel member shall serve more than two consecutive terms.

So this is where I have a problem. While it appears that you can apply to sit and take the bar the committee that reviews your application has complete power over the entire process. This seems like a huge risk to take with an LLB--&gt; LLM. On the third bolded section those requirements can be met by taking an LLM through either Tulane or LSU as both schools offer those courses through their LLM programs.

Could you just have the LLB-->LLM evaluated by one of the evaluation agencies? Even if you do that you are still at the mercy of the review committee. I've looked but have found no examples (online) of someone successfully doing this.

 

I wanted to add one more thing for someone thinking about this route. This thread--> http://forums.degreeinfo.com/distance-learning-discussions/21488-uofl-llb-want-practice-law-tampa.html contains some very helpful information. In the end I think it boils down to this; the LLB-->LLM route would be a very long and tedious way to try and practice law in the U.S.

However in some states it is possible to sit for the bar if you have the state's bar admissions committee review your application after you've provided evidence of the degree being meeting their equivalency requirements.

Also I noticed through several job search sites that some employers will accept LLB's and LLM's as a degree requirement (I posted this already). So in short if you want to practice in California, New York and a few other states then by all means go get the LLB. However be prepared to defend yourself the enitre way.

 

One other link about foreign lawyers successfully getting through the process...--> LSU-LLM Alumni

 

And of course, one of those ABA standards is that your JD must be earned in residence -- not by DL. ABA-accredited programs can offer a limited number of credits by DL, but it's only a small percentage of the total required.

Obviously, it could be difficult to convince an evaluation agency or eligibility committee that a fully DL LLB degree is ABA-equivalent -- given that the ABA specifically bars degrees of this kind.

 

No doubt this could be a major issue for someone in the U.S. getting the LLB by DL. I'm curious though if after the applicant is admitted and successfully completes a B&M LLM, would the DL LLB be an issue anymore. I know the ABA does not accredit LLM's but if the LLM comes from a B&M ABA law school it would seem to me that the DL LLB would be less of an issue.

 

Reading this forum--> LLM GUIDE - Jobs after LLM makes the outlook for LLM grads seem bleak at best. It seems as though foreigners that complete the LLB-->LLM transition into clerk positions, document review, etc. I don't know if that would be the same for a U.S. citizen taking the same route but I don't see why nationality would matter.

It seems like the talk of it being difficult for JD's to find jobs is considerably amplified if you are a foreigner with an LLB/LLM.

 

Notice how confusing this all is? I found this on LSU's LLM website:

LSU Law: Academics: Curriculum: LL.M.

Required Courses

All LL.M. candidates must attend a special Orientation program held at the Law Center beginning two weeks prior to the start of the fall semester.

The Orientation program will acclimate the students to the language and study of law at a United States law school, as well as provide opportunities for course selection, completion of enrollment and administrative requirements, and other activities to orient students to life as a U.S. law student. Orientation also includes, among others, a trip to the Louisiana Supreme Court in New Orleans, located in the historic French Quarter, and to the Louisiana State Capitol in Baton Rouge.

LL.M. students also take Introduction to United States Law, a first-semester comparative study of the institutions and concepts of Anglo-American and Louisiana laws (with an overview of how the common law evolves compared to the civil law), and Legal Writing, a practical skills component to help them prepare for professional legal writing.

The LSU Law Center then offers candidates a full range of law courses, seminars, and skills development classes, especially in the business, transactional, corporate, and commercial law areas that are often important to international lawyers.

Classes are also available in: civil and international law; intellectual property law; labor and employment law; environmental law; law, science and public health; constitutional and administrative law; family law; torts, admiralty and insurance; professional responsibility and the practice of law and procedure (including international criminal law and white-collar crime); and other areas.

If you are thinking about or planning to take the Louisiana Bar Exam, there are some requirements set by the Louisiana Supreme Court that you will need to consider when planning your courses. To be eligible to sit for the Bar, you must successfully complete 14 credit hours in professional law subjects in any of the following categories: Constitutional Law, Contracts, Criminal Law, Corporations or Business Organizations, Evidence, Federal Jurisdiction, Federal Civil Procedure, Intellectual Property, Louisiana Civil Procedure, Louisiana Obligations Law, Professional Responsibility, Taxation, Torts and Uniform Commercial Code. No more than 4 credit hours in any one subject shall be counted toward this requirement.

 

Thanks for all the work soup. With the link that was posted at the top of this page it pretty much took the wind out of my sails. There are so few states that it is a viable option in and not one state I would consider living in. Honestly the easier route is to go to a non-ABA law school and then pass the CA bar exam. The states that allow the LLM route seemed to also allow the acceptance into another state's bar to be allowed alternative entrance as well.

 

I think you might be correct. That would take on a new set of research but I think there are only a handful of non-ABA schools out there. The list gets even smaller if you throw DL into the criteria. If you do a google search for "online law school" you'll come up with most of them. I must say that they all appear to be located in California (which isn't surprising).
The only one I've ever heard discussed here is Concord which has a mini-bar at some point that you are required to take.

Would it really be easier to get a non-ABA JD, pass the California bar, then apply and take the bar in the state you're interested in? I wonder what the list is for states that allow this. Hmmmm....I guess I have something else to research now.