Non-traditional route to full-time professorship

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by chrisjm18, Feb 3, 2020.

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  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Pierce College Philadelphia has no openings so we don't know what they need for a faculty job

    Pierce College WA has openings that do not require a PhD such as the post below. This suggests that maybe be the people that you cited from this college might have not be required to have a PhD for the job. We would not know for sure as we don't have jobs from the Philadelphia campus and you can argue that one campus needs a PhD while the other not but my experience tells me that normally hiring policies are uniform across campuses. It is fine if you are trying to show the value of the DL PhD but a cause effect relation does not seem to be established here in my opinion. Again, my opinion only.
    Assistant Professor of Computer Information Science (CIS)
    Pierce College
    Puyallup, WA, USA

    Apply on Geebo

    13 days agoFull–time
    QUALIFICATIONS: Required: Bachelor's or Master's degree in any field with significant collegiate-level information technology coursework, and appropriate industry experience and certification(s) pertaining to enterprise level database development and administration and/or enterprise-level computer programming/applications development/systems development using current industry standard development techniques, systems, and languages. Must be eligible for Washington State professional/technical certification (a basic overview can be found here:; while not essential for the position, a Master's degree may satisfy certification requirements in some areas).
  2. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Why focus on Pierce? I mentioned several other examples/schools. Can you find recent postings from these schools showing that a doctorate is not required for an Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, or Professor?
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    You are aware that these are different schools entirely, right? Did you think that they just varied the spelling of the school name based on which state they were in?

    This is Pierce in WA

    This is Peirce College in Philadelphia

    Note the different spelling. Note the different web addresses. Note that one is a career/technical college in Washington and the other is a college for adult learners in Philadelphia.

    It appears you think that you cleverly pulled a job posting for a different campus of the same college system. You would be incorrect if that is your belief at this time.

    Now, if someone else mentioned the WA school here and I just missed it, that's cool, but that doesn't appear to be what is happening here in this thread that becomes more convoluted as the hours tick on.
    JoshD likes this.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Not necessary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If one is to take the position that earning a DL doctorate is a reasonable path to a traditional academic career, then the burden of proof is on that person. One is not required to prove the non-existence of something.

    Some anecdotes do not prove a phenomenon. I would love it earning a DL doctorate was a usable and oft-traveled path to academia. But no one seems to be able to put up sufficient proof of that. In fact, in almost all cases, the anecdotes typically provided regarding this point are just as easily explained away without relying on that hypothesis.

    "But Dr So-and-So has a DL degree and is teaching at (fill in the RA school)." Not good enough.
  5. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I think we established on the first couple of pages that earning a DL doctorate is not a norm to a traditional academic career but sometimes an exception to the rule. This is not a legal issue so I see no need to satisfy any burden of proof. I don't care what argument you or anyone else raises regarding the purpose of this thread. I will continue to add to it!
    RoscoeB likes this.
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Dr. Jacqueline Anita Black, MSCJ Program Director
    Asst. Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice

    Her Ph.D. in CJ from Nova Southeastern University (online) is not listed on the website. However, I have had her dissertation saved on my computer forever because we share a similar research interest (juvenile justice). Understanding the Effectiveness of Incarceration on Juvenile Offending through A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis: Do the “Get Tough” Policies work?

    Her colleague, Dr. Wayne Davis graduated from Capella University with a Ph.D.

    Just posted today: Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice & Criminology (Lincoln Memorial University) Professor of Criminal Justice & Criminology
    Required Qualifications *terminal degree (PhD) in Criminal Justice/Criminology or related area; *educational preparation in accordance with requirements of the University and the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.
  7. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I worked with a gentleman, now sadly passed, years ago who had a PhD from Cornell. I don't remember the subject of his PhD research but it was sufficient to most employers to see him employed as what we would now call a business intelligence specialist (but he predated that term). Nice guy. Zero social skills. Working at the company with me was the longest job he held. Often, he couldn't make it past 3-4 years because, again, zero social skills. He would interrupt executives. He would talk over people. He was a super nice guy and he had no idea he was doing it. He just couldn't read a room.

    His last paid position was a clerk in a liquor store because he burned all professional bridges by that point.

    Just like we can't say "A PhD from Cornell will have you working in a liquor store" neither can we do the same with the reverse. A degree, any degree, is only as good as the resume its presented on. All levels and in pretty much all circumstances.

    Got a degree from Harvard in Computer Science in 1987? That's awesome. Unless, of course, you're applying for a software developer job and by the looks of your resume you haven't touched a lick of code since Bill Clinton was in Little Rock. In which case, the kid with the community college associates and the well established portfolio is probably going to run right past you to new employee orientation. Got a degree from the university of Phoenix? If that's all you've got going for you, you might be in trouble. If you have a long and storied career and many things to offer your employer, specializations within your industry etc, you'll probably do fine.

    It really is as simple as that. It's why we see people with good degrees without work (not exclusively, of course). It's why we see people with diploma mill degrees with high paying jobs. Employers, even universities, hire the person and not the paper.
  8. novadar

    novadar Member

    I've been doing BI for 20+ years -- the field used to be called Decision Support Systems (DSS) and related term was Executive Information Systems (EIS).

    In actuality, BI is a bit dated now. We prefer "Business Analytics" or simply "Analytics".
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    He was doing it well before it was a field at all. It was just an obscure function within our engineering department that analyzed complex data. Over time their role evolved and they began answering questions for other parts of the organization. They never even called his role Business Intelligence let alone any of the prior names you've mentioned. It had a much more specific name that did not fully capture what sort of work he was doing.

    Brilliant guy.

    Ever see the show Welcome Back, Kotter? He reminded of Horshack because the very first time I was in a joint meeting with him, we're all sitting there with a few VPs. Someone was doing a presentation and he raises his hand because he wants to talk (at a time when it would be completely inappropriate, by the way) and when the presenter isn't breaking pace to indulge him, he literally began climbing out of his seat, arm outstretched, practically sliding onto the floor. He was just missing the "Oooh oooh!" that Ron Palillo did in that role.

    This is a meeting of department heads and executives. The guy could have had a degree from all of the Ivies and it wouldn't have overcome that sort of thing.

    Ultimately what did him in was a very unfortunate Asian impression in front of three C-Suite executives and two visiting C-Suite executives from our parent company in Japan...

    Sad but I think it illustrates my point in this case.
  10. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    I had a Chemistry Professor in undergrad who has his PhD in Organic Chemistry from UCLA. The guy is INSANELY intelligent. He understood his field very well but when it came to teaching, he would freeze up when asked questions. He was good in his office but when asked in front of people, it was like nerves got to him. Luckily, he was really good at teaching and got asked questions VERY rarely.
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

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  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Oh I was there.

    The cringe was strong.

    It was like watching Scott's Tots with a screen-in-screen video of yourself as an awkward teenager trying to ask out a girl for the first time on a loop.
  13. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  15. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No one is saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying it's pointless. You know, different perspectives.
  17. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  18. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Dr. Patterson’s MPH from Temple likely helped her land her role.
    chrisjm18 likes this.
  19. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    You're right. She was only awarded her Ph.D. this year and she's been an Asst. Professor since 2018.
  20. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Not to take away from her earning her PhD by any means but she was certainly one of the select few who move into an Asst. Prof. position BEFORE earning a doctorate. That is pretty rare seeing as how most job postings I see say that a masters will be considered at the instructor level and a doctorate at the tenure-track Asst. Prof. position.
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