New DETC Discussion

WOW, y'all have completely gotten off topic. How does this apply to a positive approach to the value of DETC degrees. Come on at least try to play the game. Yet another line of discussion hijacked!

 

The schools are different that are accredited

I take issue with your response that NA does or adds nothing different to what the RAs are already doing. There is a difference. The majority of the RA accredited DL programs are linked to the brick and mortar program maybe requiring some on site attendance. Few totally distance schools achieve accreditation by the RAs so far. The NAs accredited schools that have flexible course start dates which none of the typical RAs have with few exceptions. The NA schools - a learner may complete faster or slower than other learners making it so a quick learner doesn't have to be held back with the group and can complete the course and move on to the next. This by itself is a very critical area for mid-career professionals who need such flexibility and the option to complete courses faster or slower depending on their need.

Here is some factual evidence from me: I completed three graduate public health courses with UNC Chapel Hill in the school's certificate program, and those courses could be applied towards the MPH or the DPH. These online courses had very strict time lines in completing assignments and I had to meet those deadlines or get a zero for that assignment. In group work assignments, via the web, some of us had to help other students get caught up on their work. In individual assignments, I and a few others would complete the assignments in half the time and we had to wait on the others to finish. Thus, valuable time wasted for us.

The courses I took at CalSouthern and Ashworth College, you started your course on the first of the month and you could work as fast or slow as you wanted to complete assignments and still have group activities. Calsouthern does have sort of a set semester system in place with a beginning and end date. However, you can complete the course faster if you wanted to if you had the time to complete the assignments. You didn't have to sit around and wait for the other learners to finish. So, you can finish up and start another course, thus aiding one in earning the degree faster.

As far as a Psy D. Professionals in this field do not always use this degree for licensure. These degrees are very useful in director positions and various other positions in the mental health and psychiatric fields. Also useful in writing books, training in businesses, etc. So, instead of jumping, sit back and see what the evidence shows us as the doctorates from the DETC schools enter the job market.

My master's from East Carolina University requirements and content of course work was quite similar with the doctorate work being more intense. I speak from experience. So, I give you my own personal experience from attending both regionally accredited schools and nationally accredited schools.

You can't play in this playground because you don't have a RA degree, The NA folks play in that other one. nan nan nan nanna. ;-)

 

Robbie: "Few totally distance schools achieve accreditation by the RAs so far."

RA DL schools that are not also B&M:

Walden
Capella
WGU
AMU
Excelsior
TESC
COSC
TUI
NCU
Fielding
Union
Saybrook
U of Sarasota (now Argosy and has B&M)
JIU
Beacon College
American College of Education
CFP

And there are many others. The fact is, the DL model, 100% or with some residency, has been "accreditable" for a long time.

 

So we don't trust DETC to accredit the institutions associated with medical schools or not? I thought DETC-accreditation was just a good. Right?

 

The JD is not a doctorate (and DETC is not acceptable accreditation for doctoral education). At least the JD is not suitable preparation for serving as professor outside of the law school. The JD is not the highest degree in law. It is not a specialist degree, which would be the LLM. The JD holder should not be paid as if they hold a doctorate and should not be eligible for advancement as same. Without the completion dissertation there is no doctorate. JDs are also not prepared to supervise doctoral students. This is also why ABDs do not pretend to have doctorates and do not supervise doctoral students by serving on committees.

Again, the JD is not a doctorate and no amount of pretending is going to change that fact...

 

I tried. To elaborate on my earlier ideas...

If DETC wants to move towards greater equality with RA, it needs to field a stronger lineup. It needs a 'top-tier', a 'DETC ivy league', that includes some real acknowledged leaders in their fields of knowledge. There needs to be some sense that DETC doctoral programs are really playing the same game as other doctoral programs and that they are being judged by the same criteria.

To accomplish that end, DETC should temper its willingness to accredit long-time unaccredited schools, some of which have distinctly millish histories. That just makes DETC look bad.

DETC should not accredit schools at the doctoral level unless those schools already have some history of engagement with the subject to be taught and some experience with advanced research, whether it's purely scholarly or practical applications. To that end, the accreditor should expect schools with doctoral aspirations to create some research projects before they apply for doctoral accreditation.

DETC schools need to start collaborating with better known schools. Publications and professional presentations need to start appearing with DETC institutional affiliations on them. There needs to be a qualified core faculty that isn't just moonlighting adjuncts. Some modest mixture of these things needs to become accreditation standards for doctoral programs, both for initial acreditation and for continued re-accreditation.

In the latter reaccreditation case, the accreditor needs to pay very close attention to ensuring that graduate students have been fully involved in all of these activities, that they received close mentering and had real experience in advancing the professional state of the art, and that they had the opportunity to get their names on some publications before they graduated. That kind of stuff needs to be written into the accreditation standards.

DETC needs to conduct some research of its own into how those things can best be accomplished remotely, at a distance. If DETC is going to be the DL specific accreditor, then it needs to make itself an acknowledged leader and innovator in DL methodology.

DETC should try to encourage applications from non-university institutions that already have well established professional and intellectual reputations and might be thinking of creating a DL educational program. Perhaps that might be done by offering them less cumbersome and anal-retentive administrative procedures. That's a niche that seems to have worked very well for the NYRegents in that state with B&M schools. Maybe DETC could try something similar with DL schools anywhere in the world.

Lerner's suggestion needs to be followed up on. DETC needs to be collaborating with the specialized accreditors on what it would take for DETC schools to qualify for ABA, APA or any other relevant professional accreditation. If that means short-residency programs rather than 100% DL, then DETC needs to accomodate that, at least as an option for the more ambitious DETC schools. I seem to recall reading somewhere that DETC already allows programs to be up to 50% B&M. I'm speculating that DETC schools aren't putting in those residencies because it's more costly to do it and because their student market doesn't demand them.

DETC schools might raise their profiles if they affiliated with hospitals, industrial firms, professional organizations, government agencies or other high-profile places to do these hypothetical practicals and residencies. If there's guilt by association, then there's credibility by association too.

Caldog's ideas in the other thread need to be followed up on. DETC professional schools need to perform very well on licensing exams in order to win over skeptics. There probably should be accreditation standards for that too. That likely means more admissions selectivity initially and more student support and interaction during the course of the program.

 

From Dayson's lips to Lambert's ear....

Nice post, Bill. Excellent ideas.

 

Let me add a few modest ones:

Get out of the trade school business. Yes, I know DETC's history is in this area, but it weighs negatively on their image. Spin it off into something entirely different and completely separate. If it can't be sustained on its own, sunset it and its schools, allowing them to seek other berths. And then....

Get a name change. Yes, I know they changed from the National Home Study Council to DETC, but it's time to do it again. Get an academic-sounding name. Even just dropping the "Training" and becoming the "Distance Education Council" would help. "Training" is vocational. Dropping those schools and that term would help with their image, provided they step up their approach with changes like we've seen presented here. Or....

Drop institutional accreditation entirely, instead using programmatic accreditation as a "seal of approval" and to help foster innovation and quality in DL programs. To do that, they would have to bring a value-added proposition to the RAs. But if they don't can't, why even exist? Because....

Right now, DETC looks like haven for (a) correspondence training schools and (b) degree-granting schools that couldn't get RA. I'm not trying to insult students and graduates of DETC-accredited schools, and would certainly consider them for employment (and recognize their degrees). But DETC accreditation could mean so much more, and provide so much more value to its constituent schools and their students.

 

Rich,

This has to be one of the most innovative ideas I've heard regarding DETC. You should approach the DETC (I mean, the DEC) with your ideas and offer them your consulting services.

 

Rich,

I’m in full agreement for a name change (Branding); never liked the DETC trade name anyway; I’ve always thought, for instance, that Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS) promoted a far more professional brand image toward post-secondary focused academics. Nevertheless, wouldn’t a vocational /trade school (including military) entities spin-off /divestiture greatly reduce cash flow for an already small organization player like DETC? I can’t imagine that DETC’s top management isn’t well aware of the paradox their current structure superficially projects and possibly diminishes its more current post-secondary trend /leaning accreditation business model – which now includes the professional doctorate. IMO remaining with the DETC trade mark /name is at minimum an error in marketing /brand image strategy.

 

Dayson's got the best ideas. I'm just poking around the edges.

 

I considered your point when I wrote my post. I would imagine accrediting all those trade schools is (a) lucrative and (b) easy, so I'd have to agree with you there.

There are any number of business models (divestiture, partnership, etc.) that could put some distance between a university conducting doctoral programs and that "Draw the Pirate" place. But I think it is essential if DETC is going to be taken seriously.

 

With its 80-plus years of history specializing in distance education, perhaps DETC, and hopefully with a sooner rather than later name change, would leverage this DL specialization benefit within the U.S. as well as globally. Your suggestion toward programmatic vs. institutional accreditation appears a viable alternative. However, DETC leadership may perceive this option as a step-down (?). And as you’re aware, organization transformation is exceedingly difficult.

 

It has noting to do with trusting DETC to accredit institutions with medical schools or not, but instead has to do with the practical skills part of medical school. If DETC can address that issue, then it won't be an issue.

 

I would suspect any transformation--not just the ones we see mentioned in this thread--would be quite difficult. Most worthy things are.

 

I believe trust is definitely an issue when creating an online medical school. The question is does the Liaison Committee on Medical Education and the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education trust DETC and the 100 percent distance learning model to deliver training to future physicians. If what you mean by practical skills, then a hybrid clinical experience/online delivery model would be ideal for DETC. If DETC wants to rise to the level of recognition that RA schools have, professional accreditation should be sought for healthcare programs and for medical school an absolute. The issue that DETC has to address is the clinical on-campus and hospital component of a medical program.

 

Very difficult … requiring behavioral and organizational cultural alteration; just ask most any OD practitioner.

 

Really? DETC-accreditation will be accepted to sit for medical boards...?

 

In short, no. As I explained in a previous post, the standard of care as it applies to medical doctors is very high. In that regard, I don't think a medical school that is entirely online would be a reasonable approach.

I guess it would depend on on what that "hybrid clinical experience/online delivery model" entailed.