Masters & Doc from same school?

1. Actually, his stated goal was in his signature line, not in his original post.

2. And in what secular department would an apologist wannabe sharpen his skills? Philosophy? Aren't there seminaries with a PhD/ThD in Apologetics on offer?

3. You will want to go to www.google.com and search "counseling - licensure - by state" for professional counseling licensure requirements if that is what you are interested in. You will also want to google "pastoral counseling - licensure" if that's what you are interested in. There do exist some programs leading to the MDiv in Pastoral Counseling and the DMin in Pastoral Counseling.

4. I'm not sure I would totally forget the South African schools, but I would check the reputation of your SA school of choice within your denomination. Also, one of our august former Senior Members, the good Reverend Doctor Jimmy Clifton, likes the South African schools and I trust his word.

5. I have spoken.

 

Yep, what he said.

Anyone who knows apologetics, however, must also consider the school of thinking - in apologetics, there are two. Westminster Theological Seminary, for example, one of the so-called cadillac evangelical schools, strictly teaches VanTilian presuppositionalism. (Most well-known proponent: the late Francis Schaeffer, hence my previous "knickers" reference - he wore 'em.)

Most of the other mjor evangelical schools teach evidentialism, the school of thinking observed by the major apologists of the 20th century from C.S. Lewis on down to J.W. Montgomery (who went the European route for one of his doctorates, from Strasbourg), Norman Geisler (known as somewhat of a Romanist solely because he went the Catholic route for his doctorate), R.C. Sproul (Reformed Seminary), William Lane Craig (who went the European doctoral route with a Ph.D. from Birmingham and a Th.D. from Munich), Walter Martin (who held a mickey-mouse Ph.D. from California Western, now California Coast, but is sitll considered the foremost "cult-buster" of the 20th century), Robert Newman (of Biblical Theological Seminary, who earned his Ph.D. in astrophysics from Cornell), etc.

In that sense, the field of apologetics is unusual within theology, insofar as a key issue in the field is who you study with.

(Disclosure: Montgomery was once my jurisprudence professor, and Newman was a colleague when I taught at Biblical.)

As for the notion that the D.Min. is more appropriate for becoming a pastoral counselor, the key word is pastoral - the D.Min. will not prepare a person for counselor licensure, which generally requires an M.A. that comports to CACREP or NBCC standards.

 

Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me!

Of course there are - most notably, TEDS (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, no relation to the mickey-mouse Trinity in Newburgh, Indiana), Dallas, and Fuller. The secular option is by far not the only one, but it is considered quite credible within evangelical circles.

As to which departments - usually, Philosophy and Religion. Remember, much of apologetics involves the study of comparative religion, and part of apologetics involves knowing how to debate various schools of secular philosophy. That is the very nature of apologetics (see 1 Peter 3:15) a defense of the biblical gospel compared to both secular philosophies and other religious schools of thought.

If facilities are available, once can also integrate some areas of law, natural adjunct to evidential apologetics (my own background was in legal apologetics - Simon Greenleaf, J.W. Montgomery, Josh McDowell, etc.).

Nope, I stand by my opinion that the SA schools are not the way to go. For one thing, at the doctoral level, it's important to have some on-the-scene contact with the school you have chosen, and you'll find that most SA programs are totally non-residential. (I have always taken the position that graduae degrees in the helping professions, especially at the doctoral level, should involve some level of residency. And the helping professions include the pastoral fields.) But the important question is: How will the degree be viewed by others in the field? There has always been far more respect in the theological realm of American academe for some of the European schools I've mentioned than for the SA or Australian schools.

Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me!

 

Roberts offers a dual MDiv/MSW program that would lead to state licensure for counseling. Sounds like that's the way to go.

As for the doctorate level, this discussion is making me think more about the ThD. It would seem to be a better companion for my goals than the DMin.

Thanks guys,

Jon

 

Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

It all depends on the program; the MA might be a terminal degree, it might be earned along the way to the Ph.D., it might be terminal upon leaving the Ph.D. program without the Ph.D. I know of at least one school where the MA has the same function relative to the MDiv program, in which it is earned along the way to the MDiv.

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

Honestly, Ted, you parse these questions in such a way as to always sound like you are the only one with answer and suck the fun right out of the discussion in so doing. It might also be confusing to those who have other things to do.

Of course, the DMin requires ministerial service in every case of which I'm aware. Moreover, it is very likely that an MDiv graduate would become aware of the DMin program from the school from which they graduated, and then they might wish to return to the same school.

Therefore, wondering whether one should/could/would be best served in pursuing a DMin after the MDiv from the same school is a simple question with a simple answer.

Dave

 

There are no practical cons - what counts is the school(s).

 

I can see no cons, but I know that many D.Min. programs require that applicants have 3+ years of post-M.Div. experience. So ministry experience earned while completing the M.Div. would not necessarily count, and the D.Min. game clock would only run after earning the M.Div. Otherwise it would make more sense to simply combine the M.Div. and D.Min into one big program. I would check on this unless you are certain that your seminary will allow entrance to the D.Min. program immediately after completing the M.Div. Good luck (or better, God bless!).

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

1. I never said that I am the only one with the answers. I have merely given my own suggestions to be considered along with the others and introduced various qualifications and exceptions to general rules. If indeed you believe that I am sucking all the fun out of this thread, do you really think that I am the only one doing so?

2. In most cases, I'm sure. But I seem to recall that there are a few that do not have the experience requirement.

3. It is not simple, Dave. If your denomination prefers sameness of perspective, then MDiv/DMin from the same school makes sense. If your denomination tolerates/promotes diversity of theological perspectives, then MDiv/DMin from separate schools makes sense. The key thing here in this thread is that the issue of MDiv/DMin from same/different school(s) brings up a whole set of issues not encountered in the question of secular MA/PhD from same/different school(s). For example, the future professor will go into an initial hire situation with both the master's and doctorate and so may wish to familiarize him/herself with the master's/doctorate from same/different school(s) issue beforehand, while the future pastor will normally go into the initial hire situation with the MDiv only and then get his/her DMin after accumulating three years' experience and, as such, the question of master's/doctorate from same/different school(s) would not be relevant to the initial hire situation, but, rather, would be worked out with one's church board three years down the line. It might make sense to inquire about your local church board's opinion on MDiv/DMin from same/different school(s) after initial hire but before the three-year mark.

 

Indeed, sitting for the professional counseling licensure exam requires at least a master's degree (which, depending on the state, could be anywhere from 30 to 60 semester hours) and in some states a doctorate. A few counseling courses in an MDiv or DMin will not do for state licensure and specifically pastoral counseling courses (or even an entire pastoral counseling degree) will not do for a professional counseling licensure exam. That said, there are some schools, such as the school formerly known as Southern Christian University www.southernchristian.edu , now known as Regions University which offer both the MDiv in Professional Counseling and the MDiv in Marriage and Family Therapy (both of which devote 60 of the 90 semester hours to counseling courses) as well as the DMin in Family Therapy.

Duly noted: J. Cummings transferred from Southern Christian University to Roberts Wesleyan Seminary.

 

Ted, do you know what states license professional counselors at only the doctoral level? I don't think all 50 states license counselors at the master's level, but I had never heard of states requiring doctorates for counselor licensure. All 50 states do license social workers to perform counselign and psychotherapy, but only a social work degree qualifies.

 

Sorry, I'm not terribly sure; I only vaguely recall having read in a previous counseling thread here on degreeinfo that there is a trend in that direction.

 

how is univ of chicago ?

how is univ of chicago ?

thats an expensive school..