LSAT prep?

little fauss,

They want an LL.M. or an MBA, hunh? For someone to teach business law to business majors? Seems a bit extreme but you never know, I guess.

Well, there are plenty of LL.M. programs out there anxious to take your money, so...

Novemberdude:

Your ugpa is a problem, alright, but don't "unselect" yourself; let the school unselect you.

McGill is more than slightly prestigeous. Good luck! Hey, don't they offer a dual LL.B./B.C.L. program? Is your French up to it?

 

Again, ditto what Osborne said, McGill's the Harvard of Canada--in fact, I'm convinced there are McGill grads who would refer to Harvard as the "McGill of the U.S."

As has already been mentioned, that UG GPA stings a little for law school. If I were you and I really wanted to attend an elite school like McGill, I think I'd regroup--that is, if you get the thin envelope this year--and spend some time studying for that LSAT. If you destroy it, say, getting at least mid-90s percentile, you would increase your chances greatly. So what AACSB UG business school did you attend? An elite institution would help your chances.

 

Thanks Nosbourne.

With my resume I should warrant an inteview. As I said I have also done tremendously well in the Northumbria LLM so that may count for something. It may not. I don't know.


The only program that McGill offers at the "undergraduate" level is the combined LLB/BCL. They no longer offer the degrees separately. My French is good, could use some improvement, but I can manage McGill with it, they have a policy of "passive bilingualism", which in a nutshell means write in English, talk in English, read in French when you have to. I would need to improve prior to Bar School as that's all in French.

How's UoL treating you these days?

And, finally, thank you for your well wishes. They are much appreciated.

 

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? Sounded that way to me also, I thought they'd be glad to hire me, why I had some teaching experience in business law, I was magna in UG, and I have a JD from a top-tier. Top-half of class as well in law school.

So let's just get these formalities like the interview and application out of the way and...

...but a funny thing happened, I didn't even get an interview! Not even considered. They may not be Law Review happy or summa/magna law grad happy at schools of business, but they sure are degree happy and publication happy. Mind you, this school was not an elite B-school. A solid AACSB school, perhaps, but just a little middling state school that's regional at best. And the dept head flat out told me I didn't have enough education or teaching experience or scholarship to be seriously considered. He had 66 apps to review with the rest of the committee, thank you, and mine was presently sitting somewhere at the bottom of a mound of crumpled papers in ye olde circular file.

Yes, I'm sure, but I need to finish the UMass MBA first.

And in any event, ya think they'd be interested in me? I don't wanna go to any school that's not top-20 for an LL.M., as I don't think it would be much of a resume boost for business faculty positions unless it was at least a bit more impressive a name than UMass or 'Zona. I don't want to add: "LL.M., University of Toledo" to that mix (no offense intended, Toledo grads, I'm just sayin'). I suspect that my ROI would actually be better in terms of securing a decent job in academia by bucking up for an expensive elite program than just adding a few additional letters on the cheap from Yahoo State or Podunk U. But the dilemma as I see it is that G-Town and NYU and Florida and the like would look at me and laugh--I was a B/B- student in law school, just missed 3.0, though still top-half. (I think 50th percentile was something like 2.78 or 2.83, one or the other--brutal curve.

Can't imagine they'd want me.

 

Ruminations on getting one's ticket punched

I know nothing about surviving in the academy, but have you published anything lately?

Again, it's only common wisdom, here, but the consensus seems to be that an LL.M. from anywhere but Yale will NOT improve your academic marketability. And, so the argument goes, even Yale probably doesn't help; anyone who can get into the Yale LL.M. program doesn't need the degree to find a good academic position.

Perhaps you should consider biting the bullet and going for a Ph.D. after your MBA?

Common wisdom is ALSO that even the top LL.M. schools aren't all that selective (except Yale, of course); perusing the forum at TaxTalent.com, there are plenty of somewhat better than average J.D.s getting into at least one of the Big Three (NYU, G'town, and University of Florida).

Incidently, this agrees with Dr. Bear's observation in whichever edition of his book graces my shelf: "The LL.M. is not a wildly popular option for American lawyers."

I find it interesting, too, that with the apparent exception of Yale, NONE of the "tippy-top" tier law schools seems to be a player in the "LL.M. for American lawyers" sweepstakes. Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, UC Berkeley, Chicago...these all either outright restrict their post-J.D. programs to foreign lawyers or have designed them to cater to foreigners so as to offer little to Americans.

UCLA JUST opened its LL.M. program to Americans. Stanford CLOSED its J.S.M./J.S.D. program to Americans within the last decade or so.

Berkeley's LL.M. and J.S.D. programs are open but totally unsubsidized and therefore VERY expensive. American lawyers are guided gently into the parallel (and very cheap) J.S.P. Ph.D. program.

I am, frankly, inclined to believe that the majority of American LL.M. programs are, indeed, "cash cows."

 

I completed my undergraduate in 1992 from the decidedly non prestigious but good local repuation Concordia University. My 2.78 GPA compares favourably with the faculty average of about 2.3, but I'm not kidding myself. I wish I'd studied Political Science like every other law school wanabe I knew. Faculty average GPA around 3.0. I could have nailed a 3.4 and this conversation would be sounding a lot different.

I have 14 years of really nice stuff since then. Including things like actually opening successful businesses and negotiating multi million dollar contracts. Having said that I know that my UG GPA does not stack up. But I do have an award and a couple distinctions from my professional exams so that's something.

Overall I'm not really optimistic. My backup plan is completing my DL LLB. I completed 1 year toward the UoL LLB so I can finish up in 2 years. Alternatively I could look at a DL MBA, but my heart isn't really into that right now so I'd have to think about it.

A good LSAT would certainly help. I will think about that, I appreciate the advice. I didn't have time to take the LSAT, going to law school this fall wasn't even on the radar until the beginning of January when my wife suggested it to me. The application deadline was January 16 so it was put everything together and get it in the mail.

Edit: For me it is McGill or bust because there is no crappy alternative law school in town. Well, not in English anyway offering a common and civil law combined program. University of Ottawa is 2 hour drive and they offer something decent. But really, 4 hours a day in the car?

 

Boy, and I thought my JD program here in the states had a brutal curve, that's draconian.

Yeah, what's wrong with that UoL thingie? Can you sit for the bar with one in Canada? If not and they require a year of Canadian law school like they do in the U.S. with our treatment of foreign law degrees, couldn't you just soldier onward, get a degree from the world-reknowned London, then apply in two years for an LL.M. at McGill? You'd be finished in the same time as going the pure McGill route, I'm assuming you'd pay less for an LL.B., London and LL.M., McGill, than for a J.D. from McGill, and in the end, you'd have law degrees from two famous institutions (assuming you matriculated at the latter, which I assume would be more likely after obtaining a first law degree from UoL), and a more advanced legal degree.

Just an idea.

Both of you guys could also check out www.llm-guide.com for some ideas.

 

I have to go to lunch, but a quick reply.

Generaly in Canada a UoL LLB does not permit one to take a bar exam. It definitely does not without substantial experience. Quebec is even worse because we're a civil law jurisdiction.

What a UoL LLB may give you is advanced standing at law school, subject to review from the National Council of Accreditation (Canada excluding Quebec) or the Comite des Equivalences (Quebec).

If I were to get a UK LLB then McGill might slide me from 105 credits for the joint LLB/BCL to 75 credits.

Oh, and that's the other thing. We don't get JDs in Canada, we get LLBs. Or BCLs in Quebec. Well, sometimes LLLs in Quebec. It gets confusing.

Typically the requirement for a foreign law degree holder (with no or little experience) will be something like 60 credits at a Canadian law school.

The cost of McGill is the least of my worries. A paltry $3000 a year! The opportunity cost of lost salary is more significant, however.

 

www.llm-guide.com is an interesting site. It concerns itself almost entirely with foreign trained lawyers looking for LL.M. programs in U.S. law, however.

I suppose you've looked at the federation of law societies web site to see how they view the London LL.B.?

www.fslc.ca and look under "foreign lawyers" for evaluation examples and application.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother with the London degree if I were intendng to practice in Canada or the U.S.

 

typo

Sorry. That should be www.flsc.ca

And I think Osgoode? or someone IS starting to offer the J.D. as a Canadian law degree. But the LL.B. is the overwhelmingly standard title.

 

Also, how far are you from finishing at Northumbria? Can you continue working on that? If your grades stay real high and it's not that much more work to finish, why not just finish that? I'm thinking your chances are better at McGill if you demonstrate you can satisfactorily complete a law degree rather than just starting two and abandoning both.

You want to at least give the appearance of knowing exactly what you're doing, even if you don't (not that you in particular don't, this is probably more directed at myself, truth be told).

But I'm just wondering, as I try to put myself into the Solomonesque position of an adcom in the hollowed halls of McGill and look at your record objectively, here's what it might look like to them...

You were bright, but a slacker in UG, but then came into your own afterward, had some success in business, made something of yourself. But now, approaching middle age, you have some unfinished business from college, feel you didn't live up to your potential, so now, you're tilting towards law school to redeem it all, but you're going about it in this tilt-a-whirl fashion:bit of London LL.B. here, a dash of Northumbria LL.M. there, but you're not really committed to either one, just sort of lurching about, trying to find yourself.

And now, in the midst of all this chaos, you've pronounced yourself reformed and worthy of one of the finest law schools in the world--McGill.

It does sound a bit curious, doesn't it? Your actions do almost bear the earmarks of middle aged crazy. And I know, it takes one to know one, I have a very supportive wife myself, but she's beginning to wonder a bit if I really do have the faintest notion of what I want to do when I grow up. She's thinking that as I'm now on the lee side of 40, perhaps it's time to get on with it. Perhaps your wife is thinking the same thing: "November's a fine dude, I love him to death, but I wish he'd stop toying with this law thing, why doesn't he just commit and be done with it?" Probably why she's nudging you toward McGill.

What you gotta ask yourself is: have I really proven to them that I'm ready to take one of those coveted first year spots--and I assure, they are coveted at such a prestigious univerity's law school. Remember, they want people who will later graduate and become industry leaders and law firm partners and later set up endowed chairs and make huge donations--that's the game, my boy.

So, you gotta figure on a way to play their game and look like--or preferably, become--that person who will later make them look good and justify their decision to pour their finite resources into you, Novemberdude. That's why I think you should at least commit and finish a law degree. Say you manage to finish the London and McGill programs in the next two or so years. Then you want to cap it off with McGill's LL.M. so you can get an in with the Canadian law firms and get your practice rolling. Now, with those advanced degrees under your belt, you'll project competence and decisiveness:

"So you see, after setting the business world here in Canada on its ear by putting together multimillion dollar deals, I decided to become a legal expert to complement my business acumen, so I picked up a Bachelor of laws from an internationally-famous law program and an LL.M. from another--just in my spare time, you see, it was nothin'--and now I wish to practice here in Canada and broker multibillion dollar deals, but I need the year of education (note: assuming your rules there are like ours here) so I'd like to talk with you about what I can do for McGill's LL.M. program, and what you can do for me, sort of a quid pro quo, you see, you have the finest law program around, and I'm on the verge of breaking out as a legal and industry tycoon and can bring so much industry and legal knowledge to the lecture hall, let's see what we can work out...".

And in the end, my plan for you might take you very little more time than just dropping everything you've started and trying to wheedle your way into McG.

Just a thought.

 

Nope, not Osgoode, it's the University of Toronto that uses "J.D." instead of "LL.B.":

www.law.utoronto.ca

 

Osborne and I are giving you conflicting advice, which is fine. Ask two lawyers a question and you'll get three different answers.

And if you can get into McGill first shot, then fine, my points vis-a-vis UoL and Northumbria are perfectly moot. The only thing I'm concerned with is the prospect of you impressing McG's adcom with two unfinished law degrees under your belt. I would at least finish something. If you get declined this year, but can finish up Northumbria in the meantime and reapply next year, at least it shows them some commitment to finishing what you started and to the field of law, however tangentially the degree may be to the practice of law in Canada.

 

Re: Ruminations on getting one's ticket punched

Not a blooming thing other than my cogent and exceedingly insightful thoughts on this and other fora (forums?).

 

Re: typo

I've spent some time perusing the flsc site but the relevance to me is limited as it speaks to every province other than Quebec.

Here's the Quebec site, French/English dictionary NOT optional:

http://www.barreau.qc.ca/fr/avocats/pdf/horsQuebec.pdf

I knew that a couple Canadian Universities were dabbling in the JD market, but I was only aware of it as a joing LLB/JD with the JD being an American law degree. University of Windsor was on that bandwagon as I recall. I'm not 100% sure if the Canadian school or the American partner actually confers the JD.

Just out of curiousity I'm going to have a look at Osgoode's website.

I agree that the UoL degree is of extremely limited utily for someone actualy desiring to practice law in Canada. It's a major effort for either a minor or no gain. It's worth bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of candidates who actually obtain the UoL LLB do so with a 2:2, which is not really going to impress any law school. It must always be remembered that even if the National Council evaluates you as requiring 45 or 60 credits that no school is obligated to accept you and allow you to complete those credits. I was once looking at University of Victoria's website and they basically said that they had extremely few spots available for advanced standing/transfer students. The flsc website goes so far as to state that admission to Canadian law school is extremely competitive and recommend applying to a bunch.

 

No, Toronto is offering a J.D. as its first professional degree in CANADIAN law. There are other Canadian schools doing the dual American/Canadian J.D./LL.B. thing, though.

It's funny; in law, the real competition is in getting into, and doing well in, the first professional degree program. Even in England, the acceptence rates into resident LL.B. programs are lower than almost every other subject. They are creating something called the "LNAT" which is the equivalent of our LSAT, IIRC.

Good luck, anyway, and if you really want to be a lawyer, be as flexible as you can in choosing your school.

 

First things first!

The LLM will be complete, all going well, in August.

And I do appreciate your assessment of how McGill might look at me. Frankly I wish we'd had this conversation before I put together my personal statement. Although I still think my personal statement was pretty good I could have hit a few of the high points a little harder. If I get an interview we'll talk first.

The reality is that I know I'm worthy of a spot. I know I could do the work. Unfortunately, as we both know, a lot of people fall into that category. It's not like there are only 170 people a year capable of succeeding at McGill. But McGill do have the option of choosing the 170 they want.

Basically, here's me in a nutshell: I was a slacker in UG. If you needed a guy to show you all the good bars and how to pass a finance exam on 3 hours sleep I was your man. I graduated, figured that making money was a lot nicer than not making money so I got serious about working. I applied myself, made a lot of money for my company, got to keep a nice little chunk for myself, and realized how much I really love doing legal work as part of my job. Then what happens is I apply to McGill and say, basically, hey, I know I screwed up in Undergrad, but results speak for themselves.

They then look at me and say, wow, you have a nice house, a hot wife and cute daughter, but let's be serious, you aren't coming to McGill. Thanks for the sixty bucks, though.

Sound about right?

Too bad I don't like in New Brunswick, because that speech would probably get me into UNB.

 

Thanks for the good wishes. My flexibility in choosing a law school is completely limited by geography.

As I tell my wife, life is about choices. I would like to be a lawyer, but I don't want to be a lawyer badly enough to move my family to Alberta or someplace just so I can go to law school. I know that there's one out there somewhere that will take me. But I'm not willing to put the for sale sign on my front lawn to make it happen.

That's interesting about the University of Toronto. I wonder what the motivation is in U of T changing to a JD? Better portability for graduates going to the US?

 

Re: Ruminations on getting one's ticket punched

How cheap?

The prob with the PhD thing is kind of the same as the LL.M. at Yale thing. If I had the wherewithal to get a PhD in Business, I'd not be worrying about the business law angle, I could just think about teaching business. But I want my JD to count for something, I want my MBA to be a springboard to something, I want it to be something that reduces the requirements I must complete to get a doctorate.

What I'm really interested in most of all is a nice decent accredited (AACSB strongly preferred, but not absolutely necessary, so long as the program has the right curriculum, the right rep, and a decent-sounding name) DBA program that can be completed in 2-3 yrs of distance study post-MBA.

It better be legit but not too expensive. After dropping $25K on the UMass program, I will not have a spare $50K+ floating around to dump into a biz doctorate. So forget the Case Western Doc of Mgmnt, that's crazy expensive. It also makes the prestigious Brit DL degrees shaky in my sight, they're great, but Manchester, Henley MC and Aston are just gonna have to find a way to do without my $40-$50K of tuition for a DBA.

But if I can find a reasonably-priced program with a decent name--I know, sounds silly, but academia is about the name, and a Doctorate in Business from University of Phoenix or Walden would do nothing but cover a JD from 'Zona and an MBA from UMass in a patina of millishness (disclaimer: I know, I know, UoP and Walden are not mills, it's just that most faculty hiring committees at AACSB schools are ignorant of that). I don't want to do that to myself. I know my credentials aren't exactly hot stuff, but I don't want to cap off degrees from B&M instututions with a for-profit one--makes no sense.

So, is there anything out there?

1). Any U.S. state school or good sturdy foreign school with...

2). ivy growing on the ancient walls of the campus (the ivy's necessary, an unaffected but romantic crumbling and staining on walls would be a plus),

3). that offers a budget DBA or possibly PhD or other similar nomenclature,

4). that can be completed online,

5). in three years or less if you already have an MBA,

6). that won't make my CV look like it was put together by a demented mind:

Little Fauss

JD, U of Arizona
MBA, UMass Professional Program
DBA, Dickie's School of Management and Small Equipment Repair.

I know, I know, I'm asking for the world...

 

Novemberdude,

You really put your finger on it, I'm afraid. The U.S. is sticky about D/L law but CANADA is, if anything, stickier.

A first professional degree in law in either country is a Big Deal. You will spend three HARD full-time years acquiring it; it will be more competitive than ANYTHING you've ever done before, first getting in and then getting through with reasonable class rank, and it will very likely cause you to mortgage a significant chunk of your future lifetime earnings. Even if you get into a nice cheap public institution, you will still suffer the lost income, believe me.

The reason the University of California can charge California residents $13k per semester for their J.D. program vice $4k per semester for their J.S.P. Ph.D. program, and the reason California students are fighting to get into the place ANYWAY is that a J.D. is potentially worth a LOT MORE than most Ph.D.s in financial, political, and social terms.

If you are only lukewarm, there are ten applicants who are white hot and they will get the seats instead of you.

So you have to decide. If you really WANT to be a lawyer (or law professor), you should be prepared to go where you HAVE to go and borrow what you HAVE to borrow to make it happen. Otherwise, who needs this in his life?

Twenty years ago, it wasn't this bad. I applied to UNM only and I applied late. Tuition for the J.D. was exactly the same as tuition for any other graduate program. In general, of ten applicants, three or so received offers and one enrolled. Private school fees were higher than UNM but they weren't yet astronomical. It's much, much worse now. A private school J.D. will cost $85K to $100K in tuition ALONE. That makes getting into even a less-than-top-tier state school like UNM that much harder.

These days, earning a J.D. pretty well commits the student to becoming a lawyer and practicing law. He can't afford to do anything else!

little fauss: That's what I meant by "cheap".