Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by aa442289, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Jane, you ignorant slut . . .

    (No, don't think I'm being sexist - I'm just quoting Dan Aykroyd's famous retort to Jane Curtin. Which Jane Addams should be old enough to remember. Speaking of which, I cannot help but notice that Jane does not spell her last name Adams, as in John or John Quincy - she spells it Addams, as in Gomez and Morticia. That, of course, is not a judgment, merely an observation.)

    But seriously, Jane, I like your attitude. And you are quite correct - this is not a proverbial safe place. It is a place of very lively interactions, some of which can get biting. And so far, you fit right in.

    We are, primarily, a distance education forum - although you would sometimes never know it from all of the off-topic posts you see here. Even then, the wacky world of DL (common abbreviation for distance learning) is full of exposés and critiques of both legitimate programs and degree mills. In fact, this forum has been responsible for shutting down several degree mills over the years, and some of us have had the lawsuits to prove it.

    In this field, we take seriously the old expression, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the fire." Frankly, I'm hoping that you can stand the heat. Your perspectives on both LPC/LHMC's and LSW's can be quite valuable. But you can bet your buns that if you come across as whiny, you'll hear about it.

    Oh, and we don't call it "responding to older posts." We call it necromancing. :D

    Okay, boomer?*

    * Couldn't resist, although I'm just as much a boomer as Jane.
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I don't mind that you expressed an opinion and if you had done that and only that I would have let it slide through without comment. The problem is that you stated, as a fact, that there are no for-profit MSW programs when in actuality, there are. When you make mistakes like that it has a tendency to throw all your other statements into question. The fact that you still have not acknowledged your mistake doesn't help. I have posted repeatedly about online MSW programs and I know a little bit about the CSWE, licensing laws, etc. You can see some of it here


    So it's fairly obvious to me when someone makes a mistake like you did. I am simply trying to provide our members with correct, factual information.
    I am sorry that your profession has become the victim of rising fees and governmental red tape. Many people feel that taxes are too high and the government is overly involved in their lives so your complaints are hardly unique. You're welcome to post your opinions but when you lead with misinformation then you can expect some heat.
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Beyond the initial claim that there are no for-profit accredited MSW programs Jane also seems to be implying that a degree from a for-profit school that was RA and CACREP accredited would NOT be licensure qualifying. While some states have whacky requirements, I have never seen one that puts the profit structure of your school into the mix. So I'd need to see a source on that wild claim.

    Since we're talking reciprocity, it's a mess. When my wife moved from Pennsylvania, where she earned her degree and completed her clinical work, to New York she had to provide quite a bit of information for New York's review. The missus attended her graduate program before CACREP was nearly as universal a standard as it appears to be now. Her school did get it but years after she graduated. She also became licensed in New York before New York set CACREP as a requirement. Prior to that, the only eligible programs were ones registered for licensure in the state of New York. That is still New York's standard, but they flexed to allow out of state graduates of CACREP programs to not have to jump through the course-by-course deep dive my wife had to go through.

    And, of course, she had to do her supervision from scratch. Fortunately, she incorporated her own practice and hired a licensed LMHC to supervise her work thus allowing her to get right back to work. To the original point of this thread, however, she has lamented that if she had a total do-over she would have opted for an MSW. Aside from the fact that a programmatically accredited MSW is good pretty much everywhere, it also allows for more wiggle room if you decide to give up therapy and begin working in the non-profit world. It isn't like my wife was seriously hobbled by the lack of an MSW. However, for certain roles MSWs have the reputational edge.
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, Jane's mistaken beliefs are shared by a lot of people. She means well, she just has no idea what she's talking about. We all get things wrong. What's unfortunate is that Jane got that misinformation from another uninformed person and here she is posting it on a forum full of very informed people. The bigger problem is, most people like Jane are unwilling to listen to correction and that only helps these wrong ideas continue to spread. Oh well. All we can do is hope none of those people are ever in a position to hire others because they will almost certainly push an agenda based on their misguided thinking.
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    A friend of mine who is in that business has told me that in our state the only significant difference between an LCSW and an LPC is that the LCSW is eligible to receive payment from Medicare and the LPC is not. Otherwise the degrees are essentially interchangeable. I don't know if that's absolutely true but I think she's a pretty reliable source. I've heard (on this board) that it might also affect your employability with the Federal government but that might not be a big deal for many people, I don't know. I understand that state laws vary widely but I've been told that there is licensure reciprocity throughout the New England region.
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I have worked extensively with social workers at all levels and I have to say, I have a LOT of respect for the profession. It doesn't pay as well as it should and it presents a uniquely frustrating combination of caring about often wretched human beings with a politically expedient lack of resources. Based on what I've observed over the years here in New Mexico, as an outsider, I'd say, go with the MSW. It's a remarkably versatile degree once licensed at the clinical social worker level. All the options pay terribly but there are lots of options. Try not to run up a big student loan debt, though.
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    This might be a good place to insert a list of accredited online Social Work programs. The Council on Social Work Education is the gold standard for Social Work programs. You're unlikely to get licensed anywhere unless your degree comes from one of these schools

  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    As an aside, many schools who do not have programmatic accreditation, but are often seeking it, first secure approval for licensure eligibility in their home state.

    So if I open Neuhaus College in New York and we offer a Masters in Mental Health Counseling but don't have CACREP yet, we will almost certainly get approval from New York to have that degree be licensure qualifying in New York. The possibility exists to get licensed without proper accreditation in some cases. But, generally speaking, why chance it?

    Also, people should be checking licensing requirements for the state where they hope to work before they go asking strangers on a forum what school they should pick.
    Vonnegut likes this.
  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    This is always good advice, especially in New York as I have heard that they are more strict than most other states.
  10. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    The way NYS used to work was that if it wasn't registered with the state, you had to apply for equivalency. Since only schools within the state could be registered, that means that a licensed psychologist with a PhD from Harvard needed to not only repeat clinical supervision but also needed to submit their coursework to have it evaluated as substantively equivalent.

    Now, they recognize the programmatic accreditors and it's more of a tiered approach.

    Approved by the state? Good to go.

    Not approved by the state? Accredited by CACREP/APA etc? Good to go.

    Not accredited by one of these bodies or state registered? NOW you have to submit all of your stuff and have them go through it with a fine tooth comb.

    New York is also one of the few states to have licensing requirements for lawyers exceed ABA accreditation standard. This is why the fully ABA accredited Syracuse Law hybrid JD doesn't qualify you to sit for the bar in New York despite being both ABA accredited and approved by the state to award the degree.
  11. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    Succinctly summarized above. The license requirements have such significant differences between states, that you you really need to reference with the licensure agencies. There are even programs in some states, that do not meet their own states license requirements. I've also never seen a field other than social/counseling work where people were required to save syllabi from every class the took... but this field often does.
  12. Jan

    Jan Member

  13. Jan

    Jan Member

    The basic difference is that in the majority of states, generally the National Counselor Exam (NCE) is required for the LPC, while the National Clinical Mental Health Counselor Exam (NCMHCE) is required for the LMHC, the LCPC and other clinically titled counselor professions
  14. Jan

    Jan Member

    License reciprocity between states may take place in the future as the counseling profession gains greater exposure and credibility on par with Social Work.
  15. Jan

    Jan Member

    The Mental Health Access Improvement Act of 2019, if passed, will allow Licenced Counselors and Marriage and Family therapists to bill Medicare and recieve payment for clinical services provided to clients over 65. We'll have to wait and see if this act will be passed.
  16. Huklbry6

    Huklbry6 New Member

    It has been interesting to read through this post from two different time periods!

    So...since it is now 2020, does anyone feel differently about the LPC or LMHC and how it compares to the LCSW? I am in Iowa and, as far back as I can remember, most therapists here have been LCSW or LISW instead of the other. However, several in-state colleges are now offering/pushing an accredited Master’s program in Mental Health Counseling with an LMHC designation (following successful testing, of course).

    I’m considering returning to school and am wondering what others in the field think. It would take almost twice as long for me to do the coursework for an MSW program vs a MHC because my undergrad degree is in business.

  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I'm no expert on these things but based on what I've been told there are two main differences. The first is that there's some difference in curriculum. The specific coursework is different. Maybe that matters to you. Maybe not. But you'd be advised to be aware of this factor or you could wind up taking a bunch of courses that really don't interest you. Then there's the whole licensure/insurance thing. Make sure you know the path to licensure and make sure you know which insurance companies will pay for your services. Depending on where you live these things may vary. Some employers may prefer one discipline over another. I've been told that in my area, hospitals prefer Social Workers. That may not be true everywhere. So I think a lot depends on where you live/work. Those schools in Iowa offering the new Masters programs should be able to help with some of this. I assume they wouldn't be offering new licensure-eligible degrees without having gotten some assurances from insurers/employers as to their willingness to accept these new professionals.
  18. Garp

    Garp Member

    As a general rule (depending on what you want to do with it), you will get a bigger bang for your buck out of the Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) simply because they got a head start (accepted a little more) versus the LMHC/LPC. That is changing thanks to steps the feds have taken.

    LPCs/LCSW are able to do the same things (as opposed to someone who is just a Licensed Master Social Worker).

    If you go the LPC route, ensure the program is CACREP. That is necessary for working for the federal government and is gaining traction elsehwere.
  19. Jan

    Jan Member

    Generally, in terms of overall recognition, acceptance and versatility in the job market, the LCSW wins out over the Clinical Mental Health Counseling credential.

    One issue to keep in mind is that most Social Work degree programs place a very heavy emphasis on " social Justice", while the curriculum in Mental Health Counseling programs focuses more on clinical practice.
  20. Patricia Sanders

    Patricia Sanders New Member

    Accreditation doesn't mean a thing. Ffg or profit schools are just shady with EVERYTHING. I was years into my psy.d ay Arizona school of professional psychology (great school with great faculty) but part of Argosy University which filed for Bankruptcy last year one day out of the blue.

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