Liberty University & Jerry Falwell...

Yeeesss...and one should try to remember that, when a country's leader decides to make war, it is always useful to dehumanize the enemy...pretending that God TOLD you to kill these inconvenient folks isn't a bad way to go about it...and what a neat way to excuse away one's OWN incompetence at warfare..."We lost because God chose to use the Assyrians to PUNISH us because of YOUR sins..."

 

Sounds like someone has taken issue with his Sunday School classes.

 

I understand that Christian theology is a semantic game, and that most Christians pick and choose which portions of scripture they want to represent their god. There are as many different gods in Christianity as there are believers. What does it mean to "become full in their sin", and does this becoming full give license to murder babies? I suggest you have a poor understanding (or should I say a convenient understanding) of Christian theology.

Peace,
Daniel

 

<<I understand that Christian theology is a semantic game, and that most Christians pick and choose which portions of scripture they want to represent their god. There are as many different gods in Christianity as there are believers. What does it mean to "become full in their sin", and does this becoming full give license to murder babies? I suggest you have a poor understanding (or should I say a convenient understanding) of Christian theology.>>


If you are sincerely interested in discussing the matter, which you are not in my opinion, I would be happy to address any issue you want to bring up as it relates to the Bible or any episode reported in the Bible. I am not interested in debating someone that has already made up his mind and is simply looking for an argument. If you have real questions that require real answers, let me know.

Peace,

Pug

 

re:

To start with, I take issue with the god who either passively or actively (in some cases) condones the following behavior. Many of these examples are the types of things evangelical Christians would be urging the president to go to war to stop today.

Genesis 7:11-24
Exodus 12:29
Exodus 21:20-21
Leviticus 26:22
Numbers 15:32-36
Numbers 16:27-33
Numbers 21:35
Numbers 31:9
Numbers 31:17-18
Numbers 31:31-40
Deuteronomy 3:6

More to come....

Peace,
Daniel

 

Deuteronomy 7:2
Deuteronomy 20:13-14
Deuteronomy 20:16
Deuteronomy 21:10-13
Joshua 6:21-27
Joshua 10:40
Joshua 11:20
Judges 1:6 (Hussein tactics)
Judges 11:29-39
Judges 21:10-12
1 Samuel 15:3
2 Kings 2:23-24
Psalm 137:9
Isaiah 13:18
Isaiah 49:26
Ezekiel 9:4-6
Ezekiel 20:26
Ezekiel 23:25
Hosea 13:16

Please spare me the proscriptive vs. descriptive definitions of prophesy, since if God is all-powerful and in control, there is really no difference.

Peace,
Daniel

 

<<Please spare me the proscriptive vs. descriptive definitions of prophesy, since if God is all-powerful and in control, there is really no difference.>>

Again...I have no desire to argue with you. It's clear from your comments you have no desire to discuss or to learn anything. When two sides disagree on an issue, any issue, the only way to make any ground is for both sides to enter into discussion with a little humility. If both sides can admit that it is at least possible for them to be wrong - at least constructive conversation can take place. The "spare me" comments make it clear that you have no humility, have not allowed for the possibility of error, and have no desire to objectively entertain views other than your own. It even "smells" a little angry.

I believe you would be making a mistake in denying or rejecting God simply because God doesn't "behave" in a way that meets your preconceived notion about what God should be like, or in a way that you don't understand because you don't have a clear or complete picture.

So, if you care to objectively discuss the referenced passages in detail I would be happy to do so. Otherwise, I'll just wish you well.

Pug

 

Look, I wouldn't especially want a Liberty degree, but the left if far goofier in the country than Jerry Falwell. Would you like to go to Antioch College where students sign a "contract" before going on dates to agree on what level of intimacy is acceptable under their wacky sexual harrassment guidelines? How about clothing optional classes at UC Bizerkley? I can tell you that much of the crap being taught in environmental science courses across this country is just that -- pure, unadulaterated BS, with zero basis in scientific fact. If Ward Churchill had come out in opposition to affirmative action programs, he would have been history on the spot, and it would never have even made the news. Instead, hundreds of his fellow wack job faculty members sign a petition in his support. As much as I disagree with most of Falwell's precepts, if every college in this country were more like Liberty, the quality of education would definitely improve in the United States.

 

re:

Hi Pug,

I just do not desire to rehash things about which I already know. That's not a lack of humility - just a way to save time. I am sincerely interested in your responses to the above passages. Don't think that I've automatically arrived at my conclusions - I have not. It's been a journey. Just because I now believe the god of the Bible is a fraud doesn't mean I will always believe that. It's just where the evidence has led me at this point in my life. The passages are there - please do your best with them and I will listen.

Peace,
Daniel

 

<<I just do not desire to rehash things about which I already know. That's not a lack of humility - just a way to save time. I am sincerely interested in your responses to the above passages. Don't think that I've automatically arrived at my conclusions - I have not. It's been a journey. Just because I now believe the god of the Bible is a fraud doesn't mean I will always believe that. It's just where the evidence has led me at this point in my life. The passages are there - please do your best with them and I will listen.>>

Before we start a passage by passage analysis, which may end up being quite time consuming due to the need to establish proper context, let me ask you a question.... It appears from the passages you referenced that your main problem or concern has to do with God's wrath, particulary as it pertains to women, children or other "iinocent" individuals, am I correct?

Pug

 

That's correct - particularly children. I also take issue with the methods. I believe if God exists and he is the ruler of the universe, he has every right to judge, but why do so in such a grisly fashion? Thanks for taking up the offer of discussion, and I look forward to it.

Peace,
Daniel

 

<<That's correct - particularly children. I also take issue with the methods. I believe if God exists and he is the ruler of the universe, he has every right to judge, but why do so in such a grisly fashion? Thanks for taking up the offer of discussion, and I look forward to it.>>

Ok...assuming that God exists, do you believe that it is at least possible that your perspective of God, or at least what a god should be like, may have little or nothing to do with what God is actually like?

We, as humans, have a tendency to sentimentalize God. In other words we say, "this particular act is very offensive to me, therefore it must also be offensive to God. If it's not offensive to the God of the Bible than the God of the Bible can't exist."

I've heard this line of logic with regard to God's wrath quite a bit. I also hear it a lot when it comes to carnivores. The line of logic goes, "An animal ripping apart and consuming another animal is a horrible thing, therefore, if I believe carnivarous activity is the natural order of things than I can't believe in God." Even most Christians reason that carnivarous activity is a consaquence of sin...because we find it offensive it couldn't possibly be how God designed it. I, of course, disagree with that line of logic.

Pug

 

If God exists, then of course my perspective could be wrong. But if God is as he is presented in scripture, why do Christians act so differently from him? Wouldn't his behavior be a model to follow?

Daniel

 

Just as an interesting sidenote: I'm a gay atheist who just enrolled in Liberty's counseling program. Convenience beats philosophy

Peace,
Daniel

 

<<If God exists, then of course my perspective could be wrong. But if God is as he is presented in scripture, why do Christians act so differently from him? Wouldn't his behavior be a model to follow?>>

This is kind of a digression from the topic, but yes, God is a model for us to follow. That being said, one has to look at the entire work to gain an accurate picture of God. It would be a mistake to take a dozen passages that illustrate wrath or punishment and then base your opinion of God on them, especially when all the passges you referenced were taken from the Old Testament. Just like I tell Christians that continually pull out a Bible passage to support a postion they may be arguing, you can't take things out of their proper context. It does violence to the image of God and warps proper translation of a given text.

This may be a very poor example, but if someone was to judge the United States simply on the wars we waged on Japan or Afghanistan they would likely have a warped view of what our country is like. To gain a better perspective one would also have to look at what happened prior to the wars as well as at our charity, etc.

As to why Christians act so differently from Him...first of all we are human. To properly address and elaborate on the question as to why we are different from Him can you explain the way in which you believe we are different?

Pug

 

<<Just as an interesting sidenote: I'm a gay atheist who just enrolled in Liberty's counseling program. Convenience beats philosophy>>

That is an interesting sidenote! You'll have to let me know what you think of the school once you get into some of the classes. I consider them to be a quality institution.

Pug

 

This wins as the most informed post of the thread.

 

jugador,

Actually, my middle daughter finished a B.A in Environmental studies and is working on her master's in the same field at Evergreen State in Washington. I have an idea of what she's working on...I don't see much in it that would qualify as "crap". I DO see a good bit of careful, interdisciplinary science going on with some rather disturbing results.

 

and I am a.....what am I?
a very liberal Methodist?
I suppose
Who is trying to get in their doctoral program...