Kid busted for Speaking Spanish?

Nosborne, yes, I would have also said "no hay problema." I was just joking..... I always wondered where the hell AMewrican got that no problem in Spanish is "no problemo". I have heard that thousands of times......

And regarding this issue, if they don´t let them speak Spanish because teachers think they are being insulted (how confident they seem), they can always speak Andalusian not to bother anyone. And everybody should be happy ever after.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Kid busted for Speaking Spanish?

It has been my experience we guys don't start reaching maturity until around 25. You notice I said start....

 

The principal was clearly wrong... and stupid.

Moves to ban Spanish (or any other non-English language) from schools are silly... especially when they're motivated by the desire to curb immigration, generally.

Multi-lingualism is a good thing; and children of Spanish-speaking (or any other language-speaking) parents should be encouraged to know, speak and read the language of their parents, too. That skill should not be lost in the American fray.

Americans who fear foreign language speakers and their language, for whatever reason, are just dumb.

Census trending shows us that within 50 years whites will be a statistical minority in the US, with Hispanics being the largest single identifiable group among the combined non-white statistical majority.

It is impossible -- at least in the major metro areas of California (and in a helluva lot of smaller metro and even rural areas, too) -- to place an order at a quick service restaurant (McDonalds, Burger King, etc.) without the person taking the order being not only Hispanic, but a Hispanic with extremely poor English skills... sometimes so poor that most of what s/he says to the customer across the counter or via the drive-thru intercom system is rote, memorized English. I know this, anecdotally, both because of the consulting I occasionally do with clients who own such establishments; and also because someone very close to me is a vice president of a company that owns both restaurants such as Appleby's and IHOP, as well as Burger King and El Pollo Loco restaurants. To the last of the quick service restaurants among those owned by both my friend's employer, and my clients, they are virtually unable to find whites who want to work in them, and the vast -- nearly complete, in some cases -- majority of employees there are Spanish-speaking... some barely English speaking.

Given the last two paragraphs, American whites -- especially those planning on being alive in 50 years -- would be well-served to become fluent speakers and readers of Spanish.

All of that having been said, English is the official language of this country... and the only one used in legal situations, where non-English speakers may easily be taken advantage of or even abused by native English speakers. As whites should learn Spanish -- for their own good -- as this nation undergoes the inevitable change that lies before it, native Spanish-speaking immigrants need to realize that they are hampering their ability to be fully effective, and to compete on an equal footing with native English speakers, if they do not take seriously the task of learning, and being particularly skilled at, speaking and reading English.

If a student in an American school is not learning English well enough to be able to get out there in the world and kick white people's butts in competitive employment and other similar kinds of situations, then the school is doing the student a terrible disservice not to insist that English is both spoken and written and well-learned. If disallowing Spanish in certain places and under certain circumstances is what it takes to make that happen, then so be it. Sadly, I do not think that that's what motivated the principal in the news story linked-to in the thread-starting post. Pity. She might have been almost right, but for the wrong reasons. Racism, xenophobia, and godknows what else was most likely behind it. But just because one principal was misguided and misapplied the possibly-necessary (in order to get Spanish-speaking kids up-to-speed with English) restriction does not mean that others should be afraid to do so when it's unquestionably the right thing to do for the native Spanish-speaking student's own good.

As purely a matter of manners and thoughtfulness, non-English speakers who use their language as a wall erected between them and English-only speakers standing among them, and whom they know cannot understand what they're saying, are rude and obnoxious. Multi-lingual people should assess the group for the common denominator language -- the one that everyone in the group speaks -- and use that one.

It is my personal observation and opinion that early European immigrants to the United States seemed to understand and agree with much of what I've said here; and went out of their way to learn English as well as native speakers so that they, too, could be competitive; and they understood that speaking their native language to one another in the presence of someone who only speaks English is rude... and they did not do it.

More recent Spanish-speaking, and various-other-language-speaking Asians, I've noticed, seem not to understand this (or, if they do, they don't care), and refuse to embrace English as the language they need to take most seriously; and routinely use their native language as a wall between them and the English-only speakers in the room. It is, further, my observation, that this sort of attitude and behavior is most prevalent among those who see the US as a place to come to, earn and save in, and then leave to return to their native country once they've extracted all the riches from this place that they want or are able. Such as they seem a little like opportunists and users, to me... but that's just me, being my worst self.

All that said, I do not begrudge immigrants coming to the US, legally, and benefitting from it in whatever way they are legally able... and even returning, thereafter, to their homelands when they're good and done with us. America is the land of opportunity, and selfishness should not be a disqualifying criterion. While they're here, however, it sure would be nice if they'd show a little respect for the land and its customs from which they are so benefitting. Conversely, white Americans (and black ones, too, of course) should be somewhat less hostile to such immigrants, when same is the case; and should afford them the same courtesies and respect as they would any American native. Perhaps if we were more welcoming and helpful, immigrants would be more respectful and appreciative.

Those are just a few of my thoughts on these sensitive issues. I hope no one is offended, since that was not my intention.

 

The principal was wrong....

and probably stupid in how she handled this case. But remember, this is a school for students with behavioral problems of one type or the other and she said this student had had run-ins with the administration before. He is not some inocent kid being picked on by the system, she just handled the situation badly.

Also, demanding kids speak one language at school is a reasonable demand. In Chicago you can get expelled for the wrong signs or the wrong clothing. Language is just another tool some people can use to disparage others and schools need discipline to foster a good learning environment. Just so you know, courts agree and what got this school in trouble was that they had no policy on it. The principle can't just make up a new one when she feels like it.

Whites may be a statistical minority but they are still pegged to be the largest ethnic group in the USA and since Hispanics are as a group highly likely to intermarry thir size will not likely transfer to major changes in US culture. Heck, many place have always had a heavy latin influence anyway so who cares. It is not uncommon for 2nd or even 3rd generation Hispanics to speak little or no Spanish. I live next to a very small town that was inundated with Hispanic workers. The Tribune did an expose on the towns troubles and the principal made a point of noting that native born kids very quickly dropped the habit of speaking Spanish regularly. This in a school with a very, very large group of Spanish speaking students.

It isn't really a White or Hispanic question anyway. Many whites in Chicago aren't even native English speakers. For example, I read somewhere that Chicago has the 2nd largest native Pole population after Warsaw.....

 

Very true Charles, I completely agree.



Abner

 

Re: Re: Kid busted for Speaking Spanish?

Well said Quinn!



Abner

 

Re: The principal was wrong....

So? When I was 13, I was hell bent for leather, on a fast train to nowhere. First day of class, I walked into the room, sat in the teacher's desk, put my feet up on top of the desk, looked him straight in the eye, and said something like, "So let's get the show on the road." I had Rebel Without a Cause tattooed on my soul, blackboard jungle smoking out my ears, and duffuwimme carved in my smile. I was a survivor, man.

Think for a minute I was expelled for that kind of open show of disrespect of authority? Some woulda. Some shoulda. Any one of them coulda. After all, I'd been asked not to return to the school I was coming from -- since I was the most disruptive cuss they'd ever encountered on their watch. I coulda make a grown man cry. What do you do with a blue collar kid with a 200 ratio IQ with a chip on his shoulder so wide you could build a boardwalk casino on it with room to spare?

You learn his language, amigo. Get in his face (in his own language) and challenge him to smarten up or get off the ship voluntarily. You don't push him off. When a smart aleck me pushed -- no matter how hard -- my teacher just pushed back -- even harder. But not the way I pushed. He pushed me to get a grip. He pushed me to wisen up. He didn't fall for any of it.

And by the end of that year I was wearing a dress shirt and tie as I collected my "most improved student" award and my "best artist" award at the school graduation. I was also lined up to enter a school that would allow me to go to university classes anytime I felt I could handle it -- no matter my age. (Didn't go -- parents moved too far away.) And in the high school years that followed, I never missed an honor roll.

Oh, I was still hell bent for leather right through to high school, sure. Still quite a disruptor. But not the same kind. Someone took the time to learn my argot and talk English to me. And because that person was in a position of authority -- I learned to respect authority. Authority earned it -- rather than demanded it.

So who cares if these non-English speakers have "behavioral problems", man? Every pot smokin' hippy out of the sixties whined the refrain "Question Authority". That's what it was all about then -- and guess what? They stopped tokin' and had children -- got jobs and all respectable -- and now there's a second generation of their kids doin' what they did -- in spades.

The best time in life to learn two or three languages is when these kids are doing it. Telling them to stop it or get out won't produce kids that become respectful adults. Letting them do it in the halls and cafeteria will tell them they are valuable people, just the way they are. They want to make something of themselves -- they'll speak English in classroom when needed. But they won't want to emulate authorities who essentially tell them their other language is taboo. They'll want to get back at people like that -- and focus on ways to stir that pot -- rather than focus on why they're in school in the first place.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.

 

Quinn, very thoughful comment.

And regarding prohibiting the use of a language in an educational instution is one of the most stupid things I have seen. I am of the opinion of Governator, if you want to make a career in America, you better learn English. But that kid spoke clean cut English, and on top of that Spanish. He´s able to communicate with over two billion people in the world, and he´s clearly integrated in the US society. What was that principal thinking about? I think she is the one who should be hitting the road.

 

I'd like to endorse the combined comments of Nosborne, Charles, Quinn and Gregg.
Jack

 

Aryamehr oder -weniger

Me too. And what JLV said.

The whole stupidity sounds like Québec. Somewhere in hell René Lévesque is smiling.

 

Ah, but it is a FRENCH SPEAKING Hell, Uncle! Makes ALL the difference!

 

We continue....

 

Re: Re: The principal was wrong....

You hit the nail on the head brother Quinn. When I was six or seven I had a teacher tell me not to speak Spanish. She did not tell me why I should not speak Spanish. For a long time after that, if my parents or siblings spoke to me in Spanish out in public, I would not answer. I was ashamed, if the teacher told me not to do it, it must be bad right?

Well, that is all water under the bridge now. Despite things like that, I am proud to say I am a success. And I am happy with who I am. To ban any language is absurd!


Good evening kind Sir!


Abner

 

Or Valencian, Galician, Catalan, Basque (Basque is spoken in Spain as well as France) or some of the other "Spanish languages". Oddly enough, here in the States most Graduate level Spanish language students are not taught about these other languages. But I digress, this is a discussion for another day!


Bon a nit JLV!


Abner

 

Who says that Americans don't speak English well? What standard are you comparing us to? (The anal diktats of English teachers? BBC announcers?)

Regarding people speaking languages other than English, I don't think that Americans are bothered at all if they hear foreign visitors doing it. Nor are people bothered when Americans have a second language.

When people are bothered, it usually happens in areas where significant proportions of the population are continuing to use a foreign language as their first language.

Even if many people in those foreign communities are bilingual to some extent (often imperfectly), social mixing becomes difficult if not impossible. Groups tend to retreat into their own little solitudes.

That causes people to cluster. And when these cultural and linguistic changes happen en-masse to entire neighborhoods and communities, when English becomes a minority language that's spoken less and less, Americans find themselves unexpectedly turned into foreigners in the land of their birth, surounded by people who are ostensibly and theoretically American, but American only in terms of bare legal status (which sometimes doesn't even exist).

I think that most of the resentment, at least here in California, is with Spanish. There are lots of immigrants speaking Chinese and languages like that, but their kids typically adopt English as their first language, they mix with the rest of us and fit in pretty well.

But Spanish speaking communities are so large that they have become an alien nation within the nation, culturally more Mexican than they are American, where the chances of eventual assimilation into the wider American culture and community are essentially zero. Greater Los Angeles has something like four million Spanish speaking residents. You can travel for mile after mile and never once hear English spoken.

Those are the insults that I always hear whenever anyone expresses any misgiving about the direction this country is taking. I've long ago learned to keep my mouth shut.

But in my private heart of hearts, I continue to think that the changes that are happening today are going to cause this country tremendous problems in the future.

The United States might not even exist in 2100, certainly not in any form that we would recognize. The country will probably have fallen back to third-world standards in a lot of ways. Racial and cultural strife will be endemic, the idea of there being any single American identity or American people will have been long since abandoned, and there almost certainly will be regional separatisms and probably armed struggles between the alien societies trying to cohabit within our borders.

 

So "people" would be really bothered in Puerto Rico.

Keep in mind that in some parts of the USA, us Latinos did not cross the border, the border crossed us. California, Texas and Puerto Rico are three examples that come to mind.

 

Both of my grandparents on my mother’s side came to this country from Mexico. My mother was part of a large family (8 sisters, 1 brother) and when they got together all I heard was Spanish. Unfortunately, it wasn't until much later in my life that I really wanted to learn the language. My ex is from Venezuela and when we were still married I made several trips there -- often spending Christmas in Merida or Barquisimeto. I have no small affinity for Latin culture; however, Bill is dead on with his analysis of what the real issue is here. I don't think our society can continue to exist if we are forced to move toward heterogeneity. Look at what recently occurred in France. When groups of people refuse to adopt the values and culture of their host countries they are asking to be ghettoized. The result of this is a tension which is bound to erupt in violence and turmoil.

So, should the boy been allowed to speak Spanish? Of course he should. But the larger issue is one that will rend the social infrastructure of our country. Love this country. Love our culture. Respect it and us enough to learn our language. In return count on our company during Cinco de Mayo or Día de los Muertos.

Bienvenidos a los Estados Unidos de Ameríca. Pero, aprenda hablar inglés. Aprenda querer los gringos y su cultura.

JoAnn "Contreras" Peeler

 

In school, Canadian children who were children during my generation were taught that Canada is a "cultural mosaic" rather than a "melting pot". America was called a "melting pot".

We were taught, from early on, to be proud that we were a "mosaic" -- a patchwork made up of many different cultures. I remember my maternal grandmother saying something like (grammar could be wrong here -- I'm going from memory -- so it's neither spelled correctly nor grammatically correct) -- "Die kinde schiese sie Hosen" (The kid crapped his drawers.) I remember such terms from my maternal grandfather as "malarkey" (in the same house). I remember eating German, Ukrainian food while visiting there (she was Mennonite German, he was Ukrainian). They were both born in Canada.

On my father's side (Irish, French, suspected Manitoba Cree) -- most of the cultural heritage was lost -- due to (I hypothesize) some kind of desire to fit in. The Irish in me came from New York state, if I recall correctly. It had been pounded out of their soul for some reason.

But they were all Canadians several generations over, born and bred.

On any given day in Greater Vancouver, one encounters those from the Punjab (Sikhs), East Indians, mainland Chinese, Hong Kong Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Swedes, Iranians, Italians, Serbs, Croats, former Soviet states (of various kinds: Romanian, Moldovan, you name it). They're all "Canadians" -- even the ones who aren't yet officially citizens. Most of them speak English -- although some first generationers not fluently. Their children speak English, and most of them, their "homeland" tongue.

Many Canadians identify with their heritage culture, and we encourage that. There is still discrimination that goes on with first-generationers (it's difficult for them to get their foreign credentials recognized here -- we have a fair number of PhD and multiple master's degree holders driving cabs and delivering pizza in Vancouver).

They came here for a reason. To escape corruption. To build for their children's future. To earn money to send back home to family. To get other family out of dangerous countries -- whatever.

If they're still speaking Punjabi, Mandarin, Cantonese, Moldovan, Romanian, Korean, Japanese in 10 generations to come, and still holding parades in traditional dress then -- I'd like to think we wouldn't mind.

It's up to them to decide how much they want to "fit in" -- it's not up to us. If they decide to give it all away for a cup of broth -- that's their choice -- we won't force it.

That's why I wrote this story:

http://members.shaw.ca/qtj/writing/shorts/TwoBrothers.html

and this one:

http://members.shaw.ca/qtj/writing/shorts/Passport.html

The second one I wrote before 9/11. It now possibly has greater implications than it did when I wrote it.

Anyway -- homogeneity is nice -- with milk. Makes it easier to drink. With societies -- it guarantees (or even promises) what?

 

I have also read about those apocalyptic stories of secession self determination, and independence rights in the US a la Quebec. All of it is described in a book by Samuel Huntington, “Who are we”. However, the potential for it to happen is already present as the US is a heterogeneous state. In fact, several nations seem to coexist together. It appears that many are worried that if the current demographic equilibrium is disturbed (i.e. Hispanic become a majority), then the spirit and the culture of the US that brought it to lead the world will be shattered forever. I think it is a possibility. However, serious research shows that Hispanics are becoming more and more integrated in Americans society. I think Americans must do an effort to integrate these people. To sum up everything and blame it on the language is simplistic. I am glad JoAnn brought it up the revolts in Paris and then all over France because it enlightens the discussion. Those young men speak French perfectly (!!!!), and the Republic is their country. They were born there, and went toschool there (public education *was* until recently the pride and joy of the French Republic). However, that country doesn’t afford equal opportunity to Mohammad than to Pierre. Ghettos are just a consequence of marginality and lack of prospects. The North African and sub Saharian French don’t enjoy all privileges French citizens do. Even Chirac or de Villepin acknowledged they were the pariah of the French society. In France seven black players play in the soccer national team. There is not a single black person in the Assemblee Nationale (their Parliament). In America something similar could take place. For America to avoid those rifts, the second, third or fourth generation immigrant, new American citizens, must be conscientiously integrated at various levels. Language is just one of them, not the most important one. Cultural, political and economic equality with “full bred” Americans helps the most to achieve a cohesive, solid society. And this is just a part of the analysis because we are not taking in consideration that the global context is rapidly changing, and nation states tend to slowly dissolve ceding its place or at least many of its competencies to multinationals, which complicates the future even more.

And, hum, JoAnn, el día de los Muertos lo celebras tú solita. Celebramos el día de los Vivos mejor. ¿Vale?

 

Re: Problem...

This police officer was killed by three Mexicans on a traffic stop. They openly discussed, in Spanish, how to jump, disarm, and kill the officer, all captured on videotape.