Kennedy-Western lawsuit

Yes, the states have the right to regulate education within their jurisdictions but what they can't do is subvert the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights in that process.

 

Correct, so they can define exactly what is and what is not a degree for use within their borders. As has been mentioned before, there is no absolute right to freedom of speech. I cannot call myself a doctor and give medical advice without medical school and state approved licensing. I cannot give legal advice without being licensed by my state bar. In Oregon, I cannot say I have a university degree when I have passed 5 multiple choice quizes by a certain degree mill. It is simple and straight forward. The only real issue is if Oregon's rules are fair and equitable, and does K-W have any legal leg to stand on. My guess is no, but we should see some preliminary motions in the next few months.

 

In the ruling of the courts where the Florida law was struck down as unconstitution, the court stated that your statement is incorrect. It was explicitly stated that society has the right to protect itself from claims to substandard degrees. They ruled that it is for the public good to prevent people from claiming substandard degrees.

Take the same thing but put it in a slightly different context that, perhaps to you, makes it a more obvious situation. Let's say that your pediatrician had a substandard degree but he was truthfully stating that he had earned his degree from this near shyster medical school operating in a small country that didn't regulate medical schools. Do you think that you and your children have a right to be protected from this "doctor" that is just stating a true fact?

 

In both Bill and Dave's arguments, medicine and law are predominant examples. Oregon has ample licensing laws for these professions. Dave, nevertheless, the Florida ban on claiming unaccredited degrees was struck down as unconstitutional. Bill, your argument related to standard, substandard, etc. is subjective. A case in point... Universal Life Church... not your standard, Mark 1 Mod 0 religion, nor is much required to obtain one of their degrees or ordinations. Did the Supreme Court uphold them or not? I believe you'll find they did.

 

Hi Kirkland

You need to read a little further. In the case you cite involving the Florida law, it was specifically stated that it was because their law was unfair. They specifically stated that it IS constitutional for States to regulate universities and degrees.

As I mentioned, Oregon will need to prove its law is fair and reasonable. I don't see any problem with them doing so. This is also assuming K-W has ANY legal legs to stand on. My guess is they don't but I don't have the legal train to know that nor access to all the information.

Then K-W will have to decide if answering all the discovery (it will be HUGE!) will be worth it. I have to admit I think it is gutsy (but stupid) of K-W to file this suit, but it should make for good enertainment.

 

In the U.S. you cannot use free speech to incite riots or harm other people. You can however say that you've smoked and shot dope, killed hundreds, that you curse everything and everyone, that you are Hilter reborn, or that you are the evil incarnate. In comparison to what you can say in this country, I don't understand the logic of those who would make it a crime to say you have earned a state licensed or state approved degree. Surely, there are more important things to worry about. I support penalties for manufacturing or claiming a fraudulent degree but the rest is just too subjective.

 

I am not an attorney, but common sense compels me to disagree. I believe that the value, merit, and rigor of a Kennedy-Western degree are the issue. In the very first allegation in the complaint, under the heading PARTIES, the plaintiff alleges the following:

• 1. Kennedy-Western University is a degree-granting institution of higher education incorporated in Wyoming and licensed by the State of Wyoming since 1994 to operate as an institution of higher education and to grant standard academic degrees including the standard academic credentials of the bachelor’s master’s and doctoral degrees. [emphasis added]

That is fine and well, but what are the true facts? Are Kennedy-Western degrees truly standard degrees? Does the State of Oregon have procedures in place that allow any school to prove their degrees are standard academic degrees, and hence legal? Did Kennedy-Western University avail itself of those procedures?

I believe the Oregon law is clear as to what the standards are and what is and isn’t a legitimate and acceptable degree granting institution. I didn’t see anything in the complaint that claimed that the State of Oregon did not have the legal right to set and enforce academic standards. The plaintiffs just seem to want to be able to claim something that isn’t a fact (a standard academic degrees).

Although stopping someone from claming a fact is an impossible, the act itself can indeed be criminalized, such as in cases of aggravated threat and harassment. Moreover, it is quite possible to thoroughly mislead (and even defraud) someone by only making true statements.

If by discredit you mean he will prove that Kennedy-Western degrees are not standard, I agree.

I sincerely hope you are wrong. Suppose, for the moment, that Kennedy-Western prevails. What would then prevent anyone with a degree from St. Regis, LaSalle, or Columbia State from claiming that they too hold a standard academic degree?

The truth is that Kennedy-Western cannot meet the standards set by the State of Oregon and has instead resorted to suing (under the guise of free speech) for the right (?) to mislead the public into believing that it does meet the standards (even though it doesn’t).

The lawsuit is not, however, as it first may seem, a dumb a move on Kennedy Western’s part (except, perhaps, for the process of discovery). In a sense, aside from money (which they seem to have boatloads of), K-W has nothing to lose and much to gain. If K-W prevails, it opens up a new market and sets a legal precedent. If it loses, K-W degrees will be considered substandard and illegal in the State of Oregon; in other words, nothing will have changed.

 

It's important to discover how it was deemed unfair. Can you provide the specific language of the Florida ruling rather than paraphrasing? Even so, I would expect the U.S. court to say pretty much the same thing in this case as they overturn the Oregon regulation.

Keep in mind that the plaintiff in this case is not just KWU, but also several Oregon citizens. What do they have to prove, other than they are prevented from speaking a fact that hurts no one? (they are not inciting riots, no one is being slandered, and hiring entities always have the prerogative of determining sufficiency of candidates) Protecting the public from fraudulent and substandard degrees sounds pretty good but it requires a good bit of reflection and definition, clarity of thought, and due process.

 

Gus,

I too saw their use of the word "standard". But the plaintiff may claim that Wisconin standards have been met, such as they are, through the licensing process and have never been violated.
Wisconsin has the right to regulate who is authorized to grant a degree and KWU meets that criteria. I believe Oregon has the right to enforce the sufficiency of degrees for employment within its jurisdiction (State government) but does not have the right to stifle free speech such as one stating s/he has earned a degree from a Wisconsin degree granting school. It doesn't mean you can't get fired for doing so... re: recent Hamilton U. grad in Office of Homeland Security... but the right should exist. Otherwise, speech could become restricted in a number of venues on the grounds of correctness.

 

Hi Gus I disagree strongly with you on this count. When a business moves from state to state to escape regulation, claims to operate from one state when they really operate from another state, and are clearly a degree mill, they are much wiser to slip under the radar. When they take an action such as K-W has, they better be sure they have few if any failings. K-W has nothing but failings. It would be interesting to see the state of Wyoming or FBI take interest here. What has been a profitable, if fraudulent, business could easily turn into jail time for the owners.

 

I believe that you meant Wyoming.

 

Hi Kirkland

It is easy to look up the rulings. I'll leave that to you. The difference is Oregon had the information need to design a fair and just law. While anything can happen in a courtroom, clearly Oregon has the upper-hand and will likely prevail.

Who the plaintiff is has little to do with the issue. K-W was just covering their legal bases by including the co-plaintiffs. At the same time, they are clearly breaking the law and fraudulently representing having standard (read equivilent) degrees when they don't. Fraud is always a reason convict all of the plaintiffs. As I mentioned above, it would be interesting to see the state of Wyoming and/or FBI take an interest in K-W.

 

They have to prove that they have a standard degree, which they don't, if all they have is their KWU degree. Do the citizens of Oregon have the right to regulate what a standard degree means within their state? They absolutely do have that right. You assert that no one is damaged and I say that you cannot know that. You seemed to agree that a substandard medical degree hurts the general public. Substandard degrees in general also hurt the public.

Let's take what might be the least obvious hypothetical case. Say that an employer wants to hire someone for a pretty decently paying job that will be representing the company to customers one on one. The position doesn't require any directly applicable academic knowledge. The employer wants to reduce the applications and figures that someone with a Bachelor's degree has already proven that they can complete a goal and also make it more likely that they would be able represent the company in a professional manner.

Taking the above hypothetical, we have 100 candidates that are equal in all ways except one person has a St. Regis University degree and another has a KWU degree. If either of the substandard degree holders gets the job then I'd say that it was unfair to the 98 other candidates and unfair to the public in general.

 

Yep, right you are

 

Sounds like a continuation of the same scale that on the higher end a Harvard guy whined when he didn't get the job cause some CSU low-life beat him out of it. Perhaps the CSU guy knew more or presented himself more professionally, with a more positive attitude, or knew someone, or had more relevant experience, or had straighter teeth, or dressed more appropriately, or could spell, or had a better sense of humor, or could handle pressure with aplomb, or or or .... FYI most of our job reqs don't mention the degree...

 

I suspect that this will become one of the crucial issues in determining whether it is fair or not. Clearly the state of Oregon has established a simple, cheap procedure for determining whether a school is a valid academic institution. If Kennedy-Western believed that it could pass the procedure, one would imagine it would attempt to do so.

Look for the state's attorney to ask why it did not.


Tom Nixon

 

Hey it was my hypothetical. Everything else was equal. The only difference was two of the applicants had substandard degrees.

The courts have ruled that it is well within the rights of the citizens to protect themselves against substandard degrees. Guess what? Harvard is not the standard. Accreditation sets the standard in this country! People can whine about it all day but it is not going to change a thing.

 

Thank god. I thought we were only permitted self defense in the event of imminent bodily harm or the threat thereof. Although I am pressed to recall the last time someone was actually assaulted by a raging substandard degree. Nevertheless, I have a renewed purpose in carrying my .45ACP.

 

Consistency

I have to disagree with the position that Oregon has the right to prohibit a US citizen from another state to claim that they earned a particular degree just because Oregon does not approve of the school. We are supposed to be ONE nation and what is accepted in one state should be accepted in all states... (Unless Oregon plans on leaving the union.) A degree is la contract between two parties. The student agrees to meet certain requirements like paying tuition and passing tests and the school agrees to teach, test and grant degrees. As long as the contract is legal in the state where this contract is executed then the resulting degree should be accepted ia ALL 50 states....

 

I guess you haven't been following the Hacking case. Interestingly (and quite sadly), it seems altogether possible that academic fraud led to murder.