Kennedy-Western lawsuit

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Alan Contreras, Jul 30, 2004.

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  1. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Galanga:

    Got your response. My question is more generic than specific to Saint Regis.

    Againa, my confusion about them is that this forum seem to imply that their accreditation is not true, now you are saying its true but not accepted by georgia.

    As you may realize by now, I do support the means of converting knowledge to Degree level credentials.

    It seem the main area of contention is PhDs but my view is that if there is good standard, it should be acceptable to do this..

    If a person leads a major project and can document that they played a key role in the process etc. This person should be able to obtain a PhD on that basis. This is how the Dprof is done in most UK universities.

    The problem that I think exist is not the lack of work to get a degree. Its the lack of a consistent and rigirous process in doing so..
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

     
  3. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Rich:

    Thanks for your answer. It seem the underlying issue is more of standard than concept.


    If a person approaches you and said that they got therir degree by documenting experience would you automatically dismiss as fraud?

    I think there is bigger problem with people who use duplicate degrees from recognized schools falsly than from who get with the known degree mills. If someone says that they Graduated from MIT, you would probably not question them.. But They could be lying..
     
  4. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Re: Consistency

    This same principal extends to other areas: engineering, teaching, driving, and others that require a license or certification from the state.

    As it applies to driving a car, if you have a valid license from Wyoming, you can take your car to Oregon and drive around fine. But if you move to Oregon, and establish residence there, you now need an Oregon drivers license.

    If Oregon (or any other state) wants to verify that anyone working in that state based on a set of credentials has valid credentials, I would take that to be Oregon's duty. But, if they say that someone working in Wyoming is breaking the law with improper credentials, that is a differnent story.
     
  5. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Mike

    Did I hear anyone disagree with absolute state control of licensing professions??

    Perhaps the statement has been repeated a just a few too many times in this thread considering everyone is in agreement.

    90% (a guess) of degree holders hold no license.
     
  6. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Mike:

    But as you know Oregon like any other state will exchange your drivers licence without saying you got license from the wrong state etc.

    I think the proper treatment should be case by case since each emploer can determine if a persons overall qualification makes them qualified.
     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

     
  8. Michael73

    Michael73 New Member

    Distance learning snobbery

    I would agree with the comment that many view DL as illegitimate degrees no matter which school issues the degree. I think that if a degree is acceptable or not should be determined by employers. If the employer is to lazy to check out the validity of the school then tough luck. We don't need more government babysitters deciding that this degree is OK and that degree is a fraud. When a state gives a school the ability to issue degrees, it is at that point that schools should prove their legitimacy. If the state gives the license then the degree is valid. By the way there are schools in French countries ( for example Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon) that award degrees based on experience (french law) and are accepted by the United States as valid degrees. Since US law trumps state law, then they MUST be accepted in ALL states including Oregon.
     
  9. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Again:

    I am not too familiar with all the schools, so I have to speak in general terms.

    Lets say someone feels very competent at their job and have many years of good professional experience. They decide that its time to get some recognition. This person never been on this forum and never been on the Oregon web site.

    This person searches the web and finds St. Regis to get a Masters etc.. Their explanation looks good etc and decides to apply for the degree.

    Why should this person be fired if they present this degree to a future employer? Maybe St. Regis is not good standard but that does not mean the person is not qualified either.

    The basic assumption I would make is that if a degree is given for experience, the person should be obviously qualified so it leaves no doubt about their ability...
     
  10. galanga

    galanga New Member

    not what I said.

    Hi morleyl,

    In that post I was not saying whether or not I think the SRU accreditation is legitimate: I was not addressing that issue at all. As far as I know, the Georgia decision was based on an evaluation of the actual requirements imposed on people seeking a Saint Regis PhD. I do not believe consideration of the nature of SRU's credentials was a factor.

    G
     
  11. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Gus, here's where you've gone off track...
    (1) "tantamount to academic fraud" is an extrapolation on your part and not part of the complaint
    (2) You have placed my words out of context in your usual manner. I never claimed a "bogus degree" hurts no one. Re-read my post without the bias.
    (3) strawman. You are bringing up a point that is not in dispute and already acknowledged as a limitation on free speech.

    As far as your academic fraud question, my answer would be: yes, I believe fraudulent degrees from non-existent schools is a societal problem that impacts interstate commerce. I do not believe that state-approved or (in many cases) state-licensed degrees are a part of that same problem.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2004
  12. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Galanga:

    I will ask you direct question then.

    1. Whats the requirement to get PhD from St. Regis University?

    2. Is St. Regis officially approved in Liberia as a University to grant Degrees?

    I just need a clear answer
     
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Distance learning snobbery

    Hi Michael,

    You've referenced what looks like a degree mill.

    http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13336

    I agree that knowledge can be leveraged into degrees but, not my degree mills. Oregon law says that the standard is accreditation. Most other states don't specify what the standard is and employers have had to endure lawsuits after terminating academic frauds. In Oregon, such a ridiculous case would never make it to court.

    States do not all have to treat all degrees as legitimate. This flies in the face of the facts. There have been numerous cases where people have lost their job and even ended up in jail for academic fraud but wouldn't have gotten into trouble in other districts.
     
  14. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    Owing to the filing of litigation I won't be able to offer any more to this thread. Keep an eye on the case.

    Regards,
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Distance learning snobbery

     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Why is this not okay? Because....

    1. St. Regis isn't a university. It is an unrecognized degree mill.

    2. Experience ain't a degree. Some schools will award some credit for some experiences, but that isn't the same as being sold a degree because you have some experience.

    3. St. Regis has no oversight, nor approval to operate as a university.

    4. St. Regis isn't real.

    5. The employee is engaging in a fraud to fool his/her employer into thinking the employee has a real degree when this isn't the case. That level of deception makes the employee highly suspect and untrustworthy, which might be a consideration when determining whether or not to retain him/her.

    6. No matter how you slice it (or rationalize it), buying a degree without mastering an appropriate and recognized body of knowledge appropriate to that degree's award is academic fraud and should not be tolerated.
     
  17. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Again:

    This brings me back to my original questions when I first got on here.

    To me fraud is when you attempt to deceive someone about your documentation. Now if said that I have a degree that does not mean I am deceiving someone. If the school lays out requirement I am met them, then there is no fraud on my path..

    If I tell you that I got my degree via evaluation of my experience and other credits, whats fraudulent about that?

    If a school offers such service and is honest about it, whats fraudulent here?

    Maybe you could say low standard but not fraud..
     
  18. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    I am not extrapolating anything. What, precisely, do you think the complaint alleges the plaintiffs are being prevented from saying?

    The very first line in my copy of the complaint states the action is being brought to declare unconstitutional and to enjoin the enforcement of Or. Rev. § 348.609, as amended by 2003 Or. Laws c. 674 § 3 which is titled, “False claim of possession of academic degree; procedure for response to complaints; penalties.” Unless you can successfully explain how “false claim of possession of academic degree” is not tantamount to “academic fraud,” it is you who is way off track.

    All I did was quote you, Kirkland. It seems that your intent is to redefine “bogus degree” to suit your purposes.

    Once again, it wasn’t me that broached the issue. You asked me whether I saw “any harm in undermining the Constitution and Bill of Rights to further a specific cause” and I responded. There are numerous example of free speech being trumped by other issues in order to protect the public good; the Oregon statutes are simply another one.

    Don’t accuse me of presenting a straw man argument. You continue to bring up matters that, when discussed logically (such as your admission above), negate the point that you were trying to make. No amount of personal slurs will change the argument in your favor.

    Personally, I don’t give a hoot about how this matter impacts “interstate commerce.” People are being victimized, and lives are being negatively impacted (sometimes tragically). Moreover, you are employing a very narrow definition of what constitutes academic fraud. What do you mean by “nonexistent schools?” Are you saying that only claiming a degree from a fictitious school constitutes academic fraud?

    If so, do you consider degrees from Columbia State to be legitimate? What about St Regis University (they exist; they have a Web site and even T-shirts and coffee mugs)? What about a school that hands out undergraduate degrees in exchange for only five or six courses?

    I am glad that you finally revealed the bias that puts all your previous comments in the proper perspective. Please understand, however, that your personal feelings and interests in the matter do not affect the law; the State of Oregon happens to disagree with you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2004
  19. Michael73

    Michael73 New Member

    Mr. Douglas is too biased

    It is clear that Mr. Douglas is too biased against ANY university that awards degrees based on experience. He assumes that degree for experience = degree mill.... ALL French universities (I only mentioned one) are required under French law to accept work experience in consideration of the awarding of degrees. These degrees are regionally accredited in France and accepted by the INS and the State Department as valid equivalents to a US degree. Hence what I said about federal law trumping state law. Mr. Douglas thinks that unless you sat in a classroom what you learned does not count. Myself and many others (including the French parliament) disagree. Experience IS a valid form of learning.. and in many cases it is worthy of degree recognition..
     
  20. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Hi Rich:

    Your statements are not clear. Here are my questions to you?

    1. Are you saying that someone with 15 years of professional experience in a specific field did not master their field?

    2. Are you basically saying that St. Regis is an illegal school? not accredited in Liberia?

    3. What do you say about the INS standard that a person can be said to have the knowledge of a degree with 12 years experience.

    4. Why is it fraud, if I tell my employer that the degree was given based on assessment of my experience and other courses? Thomas Edison does this as we all agree.

    As I have said many times, the system in the UK especially contradicts your assertions. Mastery of a profession requires experience in all cases.. That meas a person can be deemed competent based on assessment of what they know or learnt from any source.. To be a chartered Engineer in the UK, you have to show experience plus your degree. A person without degree can prove competence by professional review

    What you should be attacking is the means of assessment not the concept of experience based learning. You would lose on that basis because you have to agree that Thomas Edison, a fully accredited school, does have this option.

    Do you have a degree? where did you get it?
     

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