Islamic free speech/diversity training

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by uncle janko, Nov 2, 2004.

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  1. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Thanks Bill Dayson, I always love reading your posts.

    We are fighting a losing war. We should pull our troops out of Muslim countries, build hydrogen cars, and let them be.

    This question of the reform of Islam is at the center of the "Bush" strategy--claiming Iraq to get them "up to speed" through the renaissance, reformation, enlightenment and industrial revolution, and so forth....

    I think we resist Islam in its pure form in the West because we see how monistic it is. It is a monism of a strict, monotheistic kind that does not accomodate to any novelties or particularities in its culture, which is the basic creed of our modern world: particularity reigns.

    I fear that the quest to make Islamic countries "free" is a kind of homogenizing that we don't see because we aren't standing where they are. We are asking them to do the same thing their religion asks us to do: homogenize. But for our program, we want to homogenize them according to abstract principles that are inherent in human being, like "freedom" or "reason." These principles aren't needed so much on their culture, because they have Allah as a cultural force toward unity, while we rely on abstractions that are inherent in all particular peoples.

    Christianity was able to accomodate to modernity because our model of God has room for particular differences in community built in, with more than one person in the nature of one God. Islam, however, doesn't have this kind of room.

    We should pull out then.

    Homogenizing them will not help anything. The human spirit utterly resists homogenization according to an alien culture.

    Chris
     
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Thank you for saying that, Christopher.

    Yeah. I have very serious reservations about using the US Army as a world-historical force, to reorient and redirect an entire civilization. Actually, I'm not sure that the Bush administration really intends to do that. They may have just decided that Saddam and his suspected WMD had become intolerable in the post 9-11 climate and decided to remove the threat. But certainly some of the more starry-eyed Republican commentators have suggested that the possibility of creating world-historical change justifies our efforts.

    Similar things have been very successful in the past. The Muslims originally spread their own religion and culture by conquest. Alexander the Great spread Hellenism around the eastern Mediterrnean and to the east all the way to India. Christianity evolved in the resulting overseas Greek context (Paul wrote in Greek) and has the theological form it has today, in large part (albeit indirectly) as a result of Alexander. Even Buddhist iconography far to the east was influenced by the Bactrian and Indo-Greeks. The Romans meanwhile Latinized the western Mediterranean and changed the world. Various Chinese empires conquered and subsequently Sinified many east Asian peoples, all of whom we lump together as 'Chinese' today.

    But nevertheless, I have extremely serious doubts that by seizing and redrawing the historical heart of the Islamic world (which is what Iraq and Baghdad are), we can succesfully change the balance and "tip" their civilization onto a new course and towards our worldview.

    We are apt to simply harden the cultural nationalist antipathy towards the West that we are (perhaps) tryng to fight. (It isn't clear what we are doing.) I think that is part of the reason why so many young Muslims are rallying to the flag of Islamic militancy and stepping up to kill Americans. To them, America has struck at their heart and it definitely is the time and place for jihad.

    But my biggest reservation is probably moral. I mean, does the West have the right to redraw the rest of the world in our own image? I strongly and implacably oppose the idea of Islam expanding by the sword, so how can I support the West trying to do the same?

    I don't think that any of us, including Washington pundits, can know which current historical tendencies will lead to what results two or three hundred years down the line. History isn't something that progresses with lawlike precision, and it isn't really predictable very far into the future.

    That means that we can't really be sure that our way is the absolute best path for all of humanity. We shouldn't fall prey to the hubris that says that we alone know better than everyone else, and that we have the right to steer the rest of the world, even against their will.

    Yes, I'm afraid that I agree with you.

    It kind of tears at me, because I really do think that our values are better. I am viscerally repelled by Islamic society, quite frankly. But perhap because I really do believe in diversity, free choice and so on, I feel that I have to let Muslims walk in a different direction if they want to.

    I guess that I hope that their civilization can modernize in the future, that it can escape its medieval religio-centric monism and peacefully come to terms with the rest of the world that doesn't believe exactly as they do. But those kind of cultural changes aren't easy and we need to remember that the West struggled for centuries with those issues, sometimes quite bloodily.

    But if it's going to happen, it's going to happen because more and more Muslims want it to happen. I'm not sure that we can impose it.

    I agree.

    We certainly need to recognize the Islam-problem in the contemporary world and take serious measures to protect ourselves against the threat that they represent. But we probably also need to let them live their own lives in ways that we don't approve of, even if those ways repel us.

    Maybe it's a time for that old Cold War slogan, "peaceful coexistence".

    But I fear that it isn't that easy.

    The most corrosive threat that Islam faces from the West isn't the US Army. It's MTV, it's music videos and video games and the internet. More and more, Islamic youth are just a click away from a world that they never imagined. It's a siren's call and it threatens Islamic civilization far more profoundly than any schemes hatched in the White House.

    Muslims want modern medicine and they want all the toys that modern technology provides. But science and engineering aren't just a cornucopia of wealth, they are a philosophy, a way of looking at and conceptalizing the world. Disease is caused by physiological causes, not by demons or by sin. Everything proceeds logically, objective evidence is demanded, verification is expected, and natural events that formerly were revelations of divine will are reduced to simple natural processes at work. As the West learned, that rational/reductive way of looking at things sends disruptive ripples through the arts and politics, all the way to religion itself.

    So my point is that even if the West leaves Islam alone they will still feel that they are under attack from our world. And they will be right. Their traditional outlook will be under mortal threat. Every day, the ever-tightening net of international trade and communications are going to be ramming that threat home.

    And threatened, desperate people do crazy things. So we should expect more 9-11's, I'm afraid.
     
  3. dis.funk.sh.null

    dis.funk.sh.null New Member

    for Unce Janko and grgrwll

    First off Uncle Janko, I'd say I admire your courage for posting this article. Though some people do see it in the context of being biased which is understandable, I liked your initiative - I am a mulsim btw - of writing about this occurance.

    The fact of the matter is, many people from countries with muslim majority move to western countries for a better life or to earn a living altogether. Of course, they do not realize the environmental shell-shock they're headed for. No person can! Unless you've travelled a whole lot from before.

    Some people can just not contain themselves and try to change the environment according to their point of view. The incident of this man you mention Uncle Janko, is quite similar to that of a Somali refugee in Toronto. He stabbed a woman just because he thought she was committing a sin by wearing a bikini...

    Personally, I don't really blame that Somali refugee for his belief, but rather I blame him for the ignorance and lack of tolerance at his part... of course, if every mulim started killing people because they think others are committing a sin, imagine how many of such incidents would surface.

    So it can, first off, be established that these to occurance are isolated, and not a representative of an entire culture, but does point to a tendency of intolerance, which is present in many cultures including that of muslims. It can can only be dealt with by educating people - both muslims (more than ever) and the west - about each other.

    Best Regards,
    Mahmood
     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Brief Reappearance

    Hi Mahmood:

    Thank you for your very gracious and thoughtful post. I don't post on this part of the board any more, but to fail to acknowledge your post would have been churlish, and churlishness is worse than inconsistency.

    I hope I did not overgeneralize. If so, I am sorry. I am appalled by the sort of incident which triggered this thread. I don't know that it need be normative. I hope not. When I was a kid, people like Atatürk and Jinnah were among my heroes (however naively).

    Civility is non-negotiable and must be defended by force of law--and by force, if necessary. But only a fool would say that the line between civility and barbarism runs invariably along confessional borders. To put it another way, better Sarajevo than Pale--and better Amsterdam than Riyadh.

    The Old World wing of my family was in Beirut for decades ("was" courtesy of the PLO). I know what happens when civility's order breaks down irretrievably:
    violent chaos within and/or subjugation from without. God spare us from both.

    Yours cordially,
    Janko

    "One need neither hope to undertake, nor succeed to persevere."
    William of Orange
    "the Silent" (1533-1584).
     
  5. dis.funk.sh.null

    dis.funk.sh.null New Member

    Janko, thankyou so much for sharing your family's experience. This is the only way both sides can be made to realize, that's in the end, it's just people killing people, one way or another :(

    I too am disgusted by this person who perpetrated this crime, regardless of what was filmed by van Gogh... The fact of the matter is, and I may try to give an example from the life of Muhammad (pbuh), when he went to the city of Ta'if to spread the word of God, they drove him out of the city by throwing stones at him, and yet he kept saying, "God! Have mercy on them for they know not!"

    Now imagine the actions of today's extremists compared to the teachings they ought to follow... Saying this may cost me my head, but it's the morally right thing to say!

    So your initial reaction, and replies by some of the people, (notwithstanding the generalization aspect by them on the thread,) isn't totally out of line; let me be the first to admit that.

    Hopefully, more people from my side will step up to the challenge towards reform. One thing I know for sure is that it's going to be a long process...
     
  6. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Bill,

    Thanks for adding some of your thoughts. It's always nice to be heard on these issues too. I have to admit, I'm just frustrated when I read the news these days, and nothing else. At least it's therapeutic to be heard on these world pressing issues I have no power over.

    Nice point Bill. It's an encouraging thought for western civilization.

    I agree. Most of the ideas I expressed about homogenization come from Colin Gunton, who just recently passed. He was a Protestant, an orthodox but "a dissenter," and keen on his comments about social homogeneity. He calls dictatorial monism, (and probably Islam by inference) "the monism of the finite mind."

    In his opinion, western homogeneity (i.e., democracy) is an improvement because it leaves more room for particularity. But, and I think many would agree, we are endangering the planet with our consumerist mindset. His book is called "The One, The Three and The Many: God, Creation and the Culture of Modernity."

    I agree. Nice reminder.

    This is incredibly true.

    Thanks for the insight on this one, Bill. And thanks again for reading and responding to my post.

    Chris
     
  7. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Just in case anyone cares as to what happened in this case, the alleged killer is a Dutch citizen educated in Dutch public schools who has enjoyed all benefits that a society like the Dutch one provides to its own (hospitals, university, etc...). How could this be stopped then if after being offer full hospitality and be treated fairly they still turn into Fundamentalist? It turns out this sweetheart was in Portugal this summer trying to kill Portugal´s Prime Minister, Mr. Durao Barroso, current president of the EU Commission.

    Dutch authorities are overwhelmed by these facts. Yesterday there was a TV show that tried to identify who was, in the opinion of the Dutch public, the greatest Dutch person ever. It turns out that the chosen person was Pim Fortuyn, a populist leader who, like van Gogh, the moviemaker, chose to be politically incorrect with Islam and denounce some of the incongruities of this religion. It is disappointing that they didn´t select Erasmus, van Gogh (the painter, of course), Willem de Oranje or dozens of other remarkable men and women that contributed to the greatness of this country. They chose instead a radical, far right wing, but extremely charismatic and intelligent politician with a dubious past. I think this shows what is the atmosphere over here. In the meantime burning of mosques and Muslim schools continue in a country that is famous for its tolerance for foreigners. I think people here had it. And the government is lost again.

    Greetings
     
  8. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    I think you answered your own question.
     
  9. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    And I think, grgrwll, that you ignore the traditional Dutch tolerance and hospitality to both people and ideas. Pim Fortuyn is a symptom, not a cause. I truly hope you realize this is not your typical left vs. right, American type of rhetorics. What we see instead is a mature, exemplary society that seems to be sick and tired of Islamic totalitarism and misology in a place where CONSENSUS has historically played a decisive role in daily life.
     
  10. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Ummm... in one breath you are telling us that the greatest hero in Dutch society is a right-winger who denounced Islam, and in the next you are talking about tolerance, and how you can't imagine why a Dutch Muslim would feel the need to lash out.

    Look, I love the Netherlands. One of the best experiences of my life was a bike trip I took there last summer. But look at your own words. It's very clear.

    I do, indeed, understand the role of consensus in Dutch life, and I think this is admirable, in some ways.

    But you asked how this could happen.

    The answer is clear. Your country has a very low regard for Muslims (as does mine.) When people grow up in a society in which they are always the outcast, how could you expect anything other than a violent backlash?
     
  11. Felipe C. Abala

    Felipe C. Abala New Member

    I can't speak for other places where I have no direct epxperience, but I guess, if we could ask those who are working in a place such as where I presently live, one would notice that the "very low regard" practice is not only practiced by non-muslims toward a muslim. Rather, it's like muslim --> non-muslim, and muslim --> muslim, and in that order of severity (the former being severe).

    I can be wrong completely, but experience read out that observation.

    cheers,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2004
  12. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    grgrwll

    I am not Dutch. My wife is, and my kids will.

    Pim Fortuyn is merely a Dutch reaction against what many perceive to be Muslim imposition and even brutality, I insist.

    The Kingdom of The Netherland provides sufficient legal and social mechanisms to avoid any unfair situation. And it provides as well the means to inforce them. No need to resort to violence WHATSOEVER.

    Early this month Van Gogh was killed for defending legitimate ideas (whether I agree with them or not is a different matter).

    Do you justify then Muslim assassinations or "lashouts" as you yourself put it?

    Can we all do the same when we perceive we are being "outcast" or treated in an unfair manner, grgrwll?
     
  13. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Felipe,

    While living and working in the Netherlands, I have never ever heard any comment depicting a Muslim at work in a negative manner.

    I think Muslims in Europe and the US should do their best to avoid being associated with this violence some practice in the name of Islam. This is crucial if we are to live in peace.


    Regards
     
  14. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    That was clearly wrong and evil.

    Of course not.

    You were asking how this could have happened. I am suggesting that perhaps it has something to do with the fact that your society sees a right-wing reactionary as it's greatest citizen.

    You claim this is a reaction to radical Islam, but I think it is more of a "chicken and egg" question. Was the intense hatred of Muslims produced by the right-wingers, or did some action of Muslims lead to the rise of the right-wingers?

    It really doesn't matter. Your society hates Muslims (as does mine.) How do you expect the Muslims to react?

    I am not justifying ANY violence at all. The murder of Theo Van Gogh was wrong, evil, and sick. I hope those responisble pay the appropriate price.

    But you asked how this could happen. Apparently you didn't really want to know the answer.
     

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