Islamic free speech/diversity training

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by uncle janko, Nov 2, 2004.

  1. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The murder took place in the Netherlands, apparently committed by a Muslim who was resident there. What was he doing there in the first place? What was that individual doing living in a country that ticked him off so royally?

    That illustrates a recurring theme: the love/hate moth/flame relationship between Islamic youth and the West. They want to share what we have, and they hate us passionately because they do, because it makes them and theirs seem so sordid in comparison.

    This kind of thing is a reducto-ad-absurdem of the kind of unrestricted free immigration that's promoted by idiot-publications like 'the Economist' and that seems to be an unquestioned article-of-faith in enlightened European opinion.

    The problem is that there's going to be a large net flow from poor and unpleasant places into more enjoyable and prosperous places. And those newcomers are going to be bringing with them the mindsets and attitudes that originally made their own homelands comparatively unattractive, and then they will try to install their familiar world in their new abodes. Finally, they will hate their adopted countries and cultures passionately and violently because of the cognitive dissonance and self-doubt that's associated with all that.

    It's not just an accident that the 9-11 bombers lived in Hamburg or that jihad is preached from London mosques.

    People aren't just interchangeable blank slates. Social problems aren't all externally imposed by outside "oppression". Cultures reflect the presuppositions and the desires of the people that make them up. Ideas do have consequences.

    Countries can't just continue to absorb unlimited immigration by individuals from radically different cultures without dramatic domestic consequences that they might not enjoy.

    Frankly, I think that this is probably the single greatest problem that the West faces right now. But the whole internal dynamic of our own culture blinds us to it, makes it invisible. The Muslims aren't the only ones burdened by increasingly disfunctional ideas.

    The left has its visceral hatred of "racism" and its absolute unwillingness to locate causes of social problems (that name itself is telling) inside people's heads, as opposed to externally in an exploitive social system that it's their mission to change.

    The right has its own blind faith in free-trade, globalism and in the world market, which they trust will ultimately right all wrongs and bring the entire world to its own blessed Kingdom.

    But both sides agree in treating individuals as cyphers, as tabula rasa blanks, as mobile work units. Everyone's own lifetime of personal beliefs, ideas and motivations are lost somewhere along the line, in the course of this dehumanization process that the West identifies with freedom.
  3. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    The one who allegedly did it is a Dutch citizen of Moroccan origin. Nevetheless the whole Muslim or Moroccan population cannot be criminalized by the action of an individual as repulsive as his action was.

    This is full of Muslims some of which are despicable West haters. To make things more complicated the European left seem to have a tacit alliance with the Muslim world against capitalism, and the US. But we have to make clear that a vast majority of Muslims don't pose any danger to society, they somehow integrate and their contribution to society is in general positive. But Europe is Eurabia.

    Inmigration laws are getting tougher in Europe as a result but there is no law tough enough to stop those who are witnessing how their children starve to death. That's why they come here, for opportunities. And because there is a call effect from others who "made" it here (there were able to buy a used Mercedes or BMW after working long hours in places no European would want to set a foot in).

    The solution is much more complicated and include an economic revitalization of those poor areas the West have been exploiting for centuries like the Magreb (northern part of Africa). Political initiatives are necessary too. Probably an impulse to their incipient democracies is needed. The EU may accept soon Turkey as a full member just to show the world that Islam and democracy can be reconciled, but there is A LOT of skepticism about it. The US is promoting their Greater Middle East Initiative that includes measures similar to those I ma pointing out. What else can it be done to stop this plague of hate against the West?

    BTW, the person who was assassinated today who claimed to be a relative of the genious painter van Gogh :rolleyes: and had very hard words for Jews as well. He was heavily criticized for what some perceived to be disdain for the Holocaust. He lived in perpetual controversy. He called Muslim, sheep fu**ers (sorry!). He was a provocateur, in other words, and made a life out of it. But his assassination is despicable and I hope the killer is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law that in Holland, and most Europe, would be laughable (I doubt he'll spend more than 15 years in prison).

  4. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Yeah, blame it on Islam.

    How about a little Christian diversity training with Fred Phelps of "God Hates Fags" who put up a monument celebrating the murder of Matthew Sheppard.

    Or maybe Eric Robert Rudolph who killed 2 people, including a police officer, and injured over 150, all in the name of Christ.

    Or Torquemada.

    I could go on and on.

    But why bother. Keep hating. Keep belittling other people's beliefs. Keep killing. Vengance and hatred. That's what Jesus preached, right?
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Grgrwll: My, how self-righteous we are today! You're damn right I belittle a "religious" Weltanschauung that says "Go kill filmmakers you find offensive." Furthermore, if you do a search of this BB under "Matthew Sheppard" or "Shepard" (I do not recall whether I got the spelling right), you can read my ultrrra-right-wing theological explanation of the possibility that Matthew Sheppard may have wound up in heaven, and of the certainty that Fred Phelps is headed for hell (yes, the genuwine, literal, burning, everlasting, royal pain in the ass type hell). But then, that might shatter your stereotype, and we can't have that, can we?


    Hi JLV: Thank you for your thoughtful post in medias res. I'm no fan of the late Mnr van Gogh, btw. You know what I think about antisemites. But I do find it utterly mystifying how western liberals who will cry out loudly at any Christian sexism (real or perceived) will make excuses for Muslim oppression of women, honour killings, exploitation of Filipina Gastarbeiterinnen in the Middle East, and the murder of the admittedly disgusting Mnr van Gogh.
    Can you imagine what the outcry would be if some "Christian" Scheissdreck had shot the lovely and talented Michael Moore? The whole religion would be blamed, not just a single diversity trainer. Now watch: somebody will claim that Moore is a great artist while van Gogh was penny-ante, so that murdering Moore would be worse than murdering van Gogh. And then: somebody even dumber will claim I want Moore dead. (Not true. I just ignore him.) Arafat, yes. Moore, no.
  6. Right on Janko....

    You are correct to draw a distinction between Christianity and the type of violence it has bred (which, in the last 100 years anyway, with the exception of Nazi deviants, has been limited to individual nut-cases) and the wholesale advocation of genocidal/jihad inspired violence that Islam seems to encourage among the entire ummah.

    Certainly Allah has prepared a fiery place for these miscreants. And Jesus welcomes those who die as victims of Satanic-fueled hate into his loving arms....

    At least that's what my backwoods Lutheran upbringing kind of leads me to.... sorry if I don't get it quite right sometimes.

    - Carl
  7. Charles

    Charles New Member

    One could make the argument that democracy in the secular Republic of Turkey is evidence that Islam and democracy cannot be reconciled.

  8. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Well, sure, if you put enough qualifiers on it (last 100 years, not counting the Nazi's...) But if you look at the REAL history of Christianity -- the Inquisition, the Crusades, burning witches, etc. -- you get a very different story.

    Moreover, most Christians, including members of this board, advocate wholesale genocide of Muslims. But I guess that doesn't count, because, as Herr Bush said, they "have no souls."

    Muslims are pigs. And we love bacon.

    And I guess he shuns the victims of Christian-fueled hate. Like the 100,000 Iraqis who have died in this war.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2004
  9. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Sure, one could make that argument. It would be moronic. But that hasn't stopped the Muslim haters so far.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2004
  10. I'm not disagreeing with you, grgrwll..... I too find problems with ALL faith-based religions in terms of the slaughter that has ensued from these out-moded belief systems.

    However, that being said, Islam is clearly worse than Christianity, at least at this point in our global history. It is almost like we are faced with people who have the same political and social development as 14th Century Christians did, except that this is the 21st Century. Instead of being armed with swords and lances, these modern-day jihadists are armed with AK47s and potentially weapons of mass destruction. The world can ill afford these type of religious warriors any more.

    And, in terms of which side I want to be on in this current religious war? Well, I prefer to be on the winning side, and would prefer that side be the one that does the most to provide a fair and equal society for men, women, and children. That is clearly not the side that Islam is on. May God help us to defeat their evilness.... and after that is done, may the same God help us to clear out all this rubbish about religion driving politics here and everywhere, once and for all....
  11. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    I agree. Let's kill every single one of those people who actively seek to harm us.

    But that's not what we're talking about here. Obviously, some people believe that the act of one nut who happens to be Islamic is an indictment of the 1 billion Muslims worldwide. So we must kill them all.

    Oh how nice. After we annihilate 1 billion people, THEN you will ask God to put an end to religion driving politics.

    Yeah, right.
  12. No, that is not what I am actually saying.

    What I am saying is that we need to use all the force at our disposal to defeat the order of battle of Al-Qaeda and the Islamist movement, to take the war to the enemy, to destroy their armies, and not worry too much about whether this bothers or harms women and children or non-combatants in the way. We need to fight a war like wars must be fought in order for them to be won.

    But I'm not suggesting wholesale genocide or slaughter of the world's 1 billion Muslims. Not that the Islamist leadership wouldn't do it to us and all the Jews if they had the chance, but we are better than that.

    However, as the old saying goes, if you want to make an omelet, you must break some eggs.....
  13. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    Ahh, I see you subscribe to the "Number 6" school of ethics:

    Hedley Lamarr : "Number 6"? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one...

    Taggart : Well, that's where we go a-ridin' into town, a whampin' and whompin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life. Except the women folks, of course.

    Hedley Lamarr : You spare the women?

    Taggart : NAW. We rape the shit out of them at the Number 6 Dance later on.

    Hedley Lamarr : Marvelous.

    --Blazing Saddles

    Ya gotta "break some eggs," right Carl?
  14. Charles

    Charles New Member


    Please finish your thought. Why is this a moronic argument? What does it have to do with hating Muslims?

    Turkey is, by its constitution, a secular state.
  15. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    It is moronic because the experience of Turkey is NOT evidence that Islam and democracy CAN NOT be reconciled.

    It's like saying that the fact that the Roman Republic devolved into a dictatorship is evidence that a republic is not a viable form of government. It's a red herring.

    What it has to do with hating Islam: Very simple. Those of us who don't hate Islam understand that, at the moment, there are a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist nuts who are giving Islam a bad name. They are not Islam any more than Fred Phelps is Christianity. But, because of the actions of these wackos, you choose to characterize 1 billion people of being incapable of living in a democracy.

    This is manifestly not true.
  16. It's still not quite right, but I appreciate the humor..... LOL! I had forgotten all about the old "Number 6" until you reminded me in glorious detail....
  17. I think you are wrong. Osama bin Laden is revered in the Muslim world as perhaps the ONLY true Muslim. His beliefs and his actions are at the very core of what Islam is all about. This is what makes him so particularly dangerous.

    The fact that what he is doing is "right" for Muslims reinforces this danger. In other words, we are up against the Islamic version of George Washington here, not some crazed nut who just needs to be arrested.

    And so long as his leadership holds sway over the Islamic world, I am afraid we ARE in for a war between Islam and the West.
  18. grgrwll

    grgrwll New Member

    That's what you choose to believe. It makes it easier to kill them. To kill their children.

    But it is wrong. Osama is revered by a small portion of Muslims. He is fairly popular in the Middle East, but only a small fraction of Muslims live in the Middle East. Only a small fraction of Muslims are Arabs.

    You know, Carl, I don't really believe that you want this "war to the death." I don't believe that you want to annihilate 1 billion people, even if they are Muslims. But if you, and people like you, continue to believe that it is inevitable, then it is.

    Stop. Just stop. Stop the hatred. Believe that there is an answer. It might sound crazy, but if you don't it will be hell on earth.

    It might happen anyway, but please, don't play a part in it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2004
  19. dcv

    dcv New Member

    I'm trying to think of a book, but the title's not coming to me... I know it was written by Eleanor H. Porter. Hmmm...
  20. JLV

    JLV Active Member


    I think you make en excellent point. Turkey as it is doesn't constitute a good example of Islam and Democracy going hand in hand. On the contrary, as perverse as it sounds its secular "democracy" has been maintained by the very influential military (even through military coups when necessary; that is, IMPOSED when the ballots didn't bring the resuts they expected). So Turkey is (was) a military democracy; whatever than means, and often veered to Islamic integrism (their last coup was in 1997; current PM, Mr. Erdogan, was incarcerated then for reciting some Islamic poems).

    However, Turkey is the closest thing from Islam to the West, and a good starting point. Many people here think that integrating Turkey will prevent a clash of civilizations from happening. Turks are willing to embrace democratic values through the European Union. It helped many other countries to achieve political and economic stability. Maybe, just maybe, Turkey could become a truly democratic nation without the "aid" of its military if it's encouraged to integrate, and show that Islamic people can assimilate and impleemnt the concepts of secular democracy.

    My point is that Muslims are not easy to have as neighbors. Years ago they were far away and no one was especially concerned. Nowadays they are here, and there's noting governments can do about it. Evidently a number of them adjust very poorly, and are a source of very serious problems. So we have to show these people a way so we can all live peacefully. A way is to show that the EU is not a Christian club and that Muslims are welcome as well as long as they keep their religion to a personal level, and they are democratic.

    In Decemebr 17 leaders at the Eu are expected to start membership negotiations with Turkey, a historical step, that MAY lead to a better future for everyone. Of copurse, it is a very risky idea and may not work after all, but as I said, may here think it is the starting point to calm the Islam down. Soem may say this is simply appeasement, I don't think so. It is sharing the future. We''ll see. There is not much room for manouvring anyway....


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