Is this the first ABA accredited online JD program?

I saw an advertisement for this program today, clicked on it, and was surprised to see an ABA accredited law school offering a (mostly) online JD program. It is offered by the William Mitchell College of Law. The program is primarily online with a one week intensive on campus at the beginning of each semester.

The Hybrid Program | Prospective Students

 

It certainly appears to be.

 

..and at 27,770 $ a year for tuition, you're looking at nearly 85,000 $

 

Not so fast - It's a 4-year part time program, so that's 111,080, plus books. And travel, food, and lodging for the residencies.

 

Yes it is. I'm sure the ABA will be watching closely.

I'm not stating anything you wouldn't already know by viewing their website, but also note that you must attend the campus for one week during the first semester of year one and year two, as well as capstone weeks at the end of each semester.

I thought about this program myself, but even my GI Bill benefits won't cover everything - I would still have to come up with $7k or so a year x4 years = $28k, which is not something I am interested in. I may commit to it if the school covers the remaining $7k each semester, otherwise I will be taking my butt to a two year JD program. It would be their loss of some guaranteed money from the VA.

 

To clarify, the GI Bill will only cover $20,235.02 per year, while it costs $19,600 per semester to attend.

 

That is too rich for my blood.

 

I think the program is perfect for those working in the legal professional such as paralegal. Otherwise, it is not a good idea for somebody to jump into different profession.

 

With a price tag of more than $110,000 I'm not sure this is a good deal for anyone unless you have lots of cash and don't expect a big ROI.

 

Their costs are generally in-line with other ABA approved law schools. If you are going to law school, you can pretty much count on a six figure tuition bill (unless you go to CUNY Law or receive substantial financial aid).

This program was never presented as a cheaper alternative to traditional law school. Nor was it ever marketed as an ideal way to go to law school.

But there are people who want to attend law school who don't live near a law school and don't want to uproot themselves (and likely their families) to move nearer one.

If you live in Central New York, you have two options for law study; Cornell and Syracuse. The former is a top law school with highly competitive admissions. The latter is much more do-able for many. However, "central New York" encompasses hundreds of miles from the Pennsylvania to the Canadian border. If you live in say, Binghamton or Watertown, a commute to Syracuse would easily be 1 - 1 1/2 hours one way.

Maybe, like Tekman suggests, you're a devoted paralegal at a small firm who wants to earn a JD so you can step up and do some serious lawyering. Maybe you are a CPA with your own firm and want to expand into tax law. Maybe you're a mid-level manager or executive who wants to earn an ABA approved JD instead of (or maybe in addition to) an MBA to help advance your career.

The program is obviously not for everyone. But there are people who will benefit from a program like this. Honestly, it's pretty tempting for me. I work in HR. If I earned a JD, I would continue to work in HR, though I would try to leverage my JD to allow greater collaboration with our legal department (also part of HR). Having a JD and being admitted to the New York bar would also open up advancement opportunities for me since, at a certain level, you would need to take over management of the whole HR department, including our legal team.

High cost? My employer pays up to $65,000 for a degree.

Travel? I get four weeks of vacation per year, so one week per semester is do-able.

Time commitment? Hey, I always talk about wanting to earn a law degree. If I really want it, this would be an option.

Programs like this are going to be necessary for a lot of small law schools to stay afloat. Third tier law schools can't really make any grand promises for graduates to actually get jobs. But, they might very well be able to offer something to people who already have jobs. Considering how badly the job market is flooded with MBAs, the JD could actually prove itself to be useful outside the legal world.

MBA from Ashworth College or a JD from say, Touro Law?

 

It is very, very, unlikely that a devoted paralegal will work his or herself from the bottom rung of the legal profession by acquiring a $100k JD from a non-competitive law school. That is a fact. Now, if a paralegal is stellar and works for a large firm, perhaps their firm offers scholarships, in which case I would assume they would return to work at the said firm as a JD holder. I bet this is rare. And if a paralegal did want to go out into the wild and do his or her own lawyering, hopefully they would have the sense to ask for the opinions of their bosses. I'm pretty certain they would suggest the option that is the least expensive.

Don't take my word for it, go to law forums and see what actual JD holders have to say about this. In any case, there are plenty of state law schools with in-state tuition rates that are reasonable, hovering at <$20,000 a year. Many of them offer part-time night courses for the working adult.

Sure this program may have utility for some individuals, but I will tell you what...I am not convinced that a $100k+ JD that you don't really need will be that much more beneficial than a $20,000 poopy MBA.

 

My mother worked as a paralegal for a small family firm for a decade while going back to school to earn her B.A. in Art History. Then she attended the part-time program at Brooklyn College to earn her J.D. Upon completion of that program she began working in the firm where she had been a paralegal. She never made "big law" money. But her goal was more than to earn more money.

So no, that isn't fact. Also, if you think a paralegal is the bottom rung, you are sorely mistaken. A paralegal at a top firm can command a salary that dwarfs the income of some self-employed lawyers, public interest attorneys, many public defenders or a lawyer at a very small firm.

Not only was this not what I said, it completely attempts to hijack the point I was making. You'll notice, if you actually read what I posted, I was speaking about individuals who do not reside near a law school. Just how many large law firms would you say there are in rural upstate New York? You're right. If I'm living in Watertown, NY I could save a lot of tuition money if I move to Queens, NY and attend CUNY Law. However, I also have to quit my job, move to Queens and not work for three years.

If I, in the example I actually provided, am working for a small law firm in say, Watertown (very near the Canadian border and too far to reasonable commute to Syracuse as a 1L) programs like this would allow me to do something I might not otherwise be afforded the opportunity to do; sit for the New York Bar Exam.

You can't just compare tuition. You have to look at opportunity cost. This program costs $100k (before financial aid). Say I find a three year full-time program at $20,000 per year. Now let's say I'm making $35,000 per year as a paralegal at a small firm in rural New York with about 2-5 attorneys. The comparison isn't as simple as $100k versus $60k. By having to quit my job, I'm losing $35,000 per year. By having to move to New York (or wherever) and live on student loans, I'm losing even more.

So yes, for that individual, a $100k program that I can complete while working and without having to move might very well be tempting. As for the ROI, that is entirely up to the individual. Maybe they won't make much more as a lawyer. They could get a job as a public defender (the going rate in this part of NYS is $60k per year for a county employed Public Defender). But maybe that person just wants to become a lawyer because they've always wanted to be a lawyer and circumstance led them down a different path. Only that individual can make the call.

Yes, and as I've addressed, they are in fixed geographic locations and are not always practical to commute to. Also, in New York, not all part-time programs are bar qualifying. Brooklyn College has a weekend program which does not qualify you to sit for the NYS bar. Part-time law study generally means you take a lighter course load. But that doesn't mean the school offers course schedules which work for working adults.

Right, exactly what I said in my earlier post.

 

Had my mother attended Brooklyn College for her JD she would have had a heck of a time trying to qualify for the bar. She went to Brooklyn Law School. I Just noticed my error.

 

I didn't see a "weekend" non-bar qualifying JD program on Brooklyn Law's website. http://www.brooklaw.edu/Admissions/apply/ApplicationOptions/SpecialApplicants.aspx

In fact, I'm pretty sure no ABA-approved law school offers a non-bar JD. It's quite the opposite in fact: all ABA-approved JD's qualify the holder to sit for the bar in every jurisdiction. If there's an ABA LS fleecing students into a JD program that does not lead to a law license, it's flying below the radar. I may be wrong, but I'd bet something like this does not exist.

 

First of all, it is a fact that it is "very unlikely" for the said situation to occur. Statistics is on my side. Notice I didn't say that it is impossible or unheard of. You are sorely mistaken if you think otherwise. I am happy that your anecdotal story is one of success, however it is not common.

Are we going to play semantics here? In a relationship between a paralegal and a lawyer, who is the boss and who is the subordinate? That is what I meant, and you know it.

Sage like advice.

In agreement with FJD - Almost every part-time program that I have ever looked at offer their courses at times in which it is convenient for working adults. I have never heard of a part-time JD program at an ABA school that is not bar qualifying. What program are you talking about at Brooklyn Law School?

 

Pugbelly2: "With a price tag of more than $110,000 I'm not sure this is a good deal for anyone unless you have lots of cash and don't expect a big ROI."

John: I'm not sure I agree. USNews salary survey for 2013 (http://tinyurl.com/abczdgn) says the average salary for a lawyer in the US is $132,000, and the average salary for a high school teacher is $58,000. A difference of $74,000 a year. So: let the high school, teacher borrow all the tuition money on a home equity line of credit at 5%. Total interest over four years: around $10,000. Pay off the line of credit out of that $74,000 differential over the 2 or 3 years after graduation. Total interest now around $15,000. And for the next 30 years, there is that $74,000 a year difference, or $2.2 million. Based on the $15,000 out of pocket, that's an ROI of more than 12,000%.

 

Before I get into this, I want you to really, really consider what exactly you are arguing against.

I made a general statement which you attempted to refute. I then clarified my statement. I am not referring to all paralegals. I'm not referring to "most" paralegals. I'm referring to paralegals who work for very small (likely family owned) firms in areas with absolutely NO law school within a reasonable geographic proximity.

You absolutely do not have statistics that would show that an individual in a firm like that would not be able to step up and become a partner. You might have general employability surveys. You might have surveys about the number of paralegals who actually go on to law school. I'm talking about individuals who, for a variety of reasons centered around geographic isolation, were previously barred from legal study. And you cannot compare a paralegal working for an individual attorney in Cuba, NY to a paralegal working for Baker & McKenzie in Manhattan. They are two different worlds.

Let me come up with another example here. Let's say I'm a sole practitioner lawyer. My law firm is me and I am my law firm. My wife functions as a paralegal and office manager. But you know, we have kids. If something happened to me the practice would die with me. Wouldn't it be great if my wife could not only help me but could practice law herself? We might not make any more money. But it would lighten my workload and, in the event of my untimely demise, she could just assume the practice.

These are the types of people I'm talking about. People who are working at very small firms. Would this program absolutely benefit them? I don't know. That's for them to decide.

I find it ironic that you decided to launch a pedantic assault on an incredibly general statement and are accusing me of "playing semantics." I think you are taking this a bit too personally. My point is simply that a paralegal at a major "big law" firm is going to have a very different relationship with their boss than a paralegal at a small family-owned firm in rural New York. While one may be regarded as competent at the former, I would say it much more likely that a paralegal would be more regarded as a trusted colleague at the latter. When people work in a small group perceptions drastically change.

Brooklyn Law School used to have a weekend program. They clearly do not offer it anymore. It was regularly spoken of in regular circles as not a pathway to becoming an attorney as the weekend program did not qualify you for the bar in New York. It wasn't a matter of an ABA approved program not being bar qualifying everywhere. It was a matter of that program not allowing you to sit for the NYS bar exam.

While I don't have a reference to Brooklyn Law School saying this, I do have references from the NYS Board of Law Examiners located here which I will summarize below:

Emphasis is mine.

In particular, and I suspect this is why weekend bar programs create an issue:

I imagine this is the crux of the issue. It could be that the weekend program could have enabled one to take the bar but that practically most of the students were not completing the coursework in a timely manner to qualify for the bar exam.

Regardless of your personal opinion (or that of FJD's) the eligibility guidelines for the NYS bar are stricter than the ABA standards. So, by the Board of Law Examiners' own admission, an ABA approved law degree may very well not qualify an individual to sit for the bar in New York.

 

Yes, NY says graduating from an ABA school does not automatically qualify someone to take the bar exam, but you leave out some of the context here. If you keep reading from the NYS BLS site, it talks about the school having to be ABA approved during the entirety of your study. So, you can't, say, go to an unapproved school for 2 years that gets provisionally approved in year 3 and then take the NY Bar (without first getting a waiver). Practically speaking, if you go to an established school, you can take the NY bar.

The additional strictness of NY is somewhat odd, given that the NY Bar Exam is relatively easy, requiring a passing score of just 133 on the 200 point scale, behind states like North Dakota, Utah (both 135), and *gasp* West Virginia (135). Wouldn't simply making the test more difficult be a better solution, if the goal is to make sure new lawyers are competent to practice? I'll leave that others on this forum, who are obviously very knowledgable about these topics.

Page 42 of this guide gives you the 200 point scale:
http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files/Comp-Guide/CompGuide.pdf

 

There are some interesting debates going on in this thread and I'm not really going to add to any of them. I'd just say that I think it's great that this program has started. It might be expensive by some standards, it might be this, it might be that but I'll bet it succeeds because there will be enough people who value the credential and the potential career path who can't do it any other way. I think that's the key, it creates an option that didn't exist before. It will be the best option for enough people so that it will work. This is essentially how DL started. It created a new option for those would couldn't follow the traditional path in higher education. With law school enrollments down I'm not surprised that someone took this step because it opens programs to an entirely new and different pool of potential students. Everybody wins.

 

I didn't take anything out of context. You are conflating two separate requirements.

We were talking about why a part-time program, which is ABA approved, would not qualify the holder of that degree to sit for the NYS bar. The Bar Examiners answer that question; if the student took longer than 60 months from commencement to completion, then the student is not eligible to sit for the exam. Period.

That has nothing to do with the period of approval. It doesn't matter if the program was approved for the entirety of study. By exceeding the maximum allowable time to complete you cannot sit for the NYS bar.



Yes, practically speaking, an ABA approved degree lets you sit for the bar. However, depending upon how your part-time program is/was structured, that may not be the case.

That is also the reason why the weekend programs likely went away. I can only imagine that it would be very difficult to cram three years worth of full time study into weekends only without exceeding five years. While it might be possible you would only need a single semester interruption due to work or family to kill your chances of bar admission.

And yet, as we are discussing on another thread, New York waived the bar exam for students whose studies were interrupted to serve in the Armed Forces during the Vietnam era.

So, New York, as in virtually every other area of professional licensure, has a series of laws unique to the state of New York which seem to needlessly confuse. Like the roundabout laws surrounding NYS licensed psychologists (and the law's bias against psychologists trained outside the state) these provisions were likely intended to keep as many out-of-state lawyers from practicing in New York as possible.

Still, the issue you raised was:

And practically speaking, you may be correct. It is entirely possible that, at present, every single ABA approved JD meets the requirements of the NYS Bar. However, it isn't by virtue of being ABA approved since New York's standards exceed ABA standards.