International Comparison of Academic Qualifications (External and Internal)

My credentials

For all those who are wondering I graduated from secondary school and college in Ontario. I hold an undergraduate degree from an American university in Minnesota and a master's degree from a Canadian university in Ontario. Right now I am applying to various PhD programs in Canada and England. All of my education has been "traditional" on-campus.

 

Such witty yet profound banter. Your eclectic use of smiley faces and instinctive eye of color surely portend a turning point in human development. In celebration I shall leave in your care a link to my web site, lest you one day decide to pursue a real degree.

Lawrie Miller
BA in 4 Weeks
http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/mainmenu.html

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Re: Equivalency

Your first post contained an equivalency table, in which British bachelors degrees were equated with American masters degrees and British masters with American doctorates. British doctorates are something "higher", whatever that means.

I would like to repeat:

1. If British degrees are superior to that extent over their American counterparts, one would expect to see evidence of that superiority in how the degrees are received by employers and by graduate schools. In reality, that utility disparity doesn't seem to exist.

2. If British degrees are superior to that extent over their American counterparts, one would expect to see evidence of that superiority reflected in the superior accomplishments of British university graduates. In reality, if there is a difference at all, one could probably argue that it is the American graduates that show superior accomplishment after graduation.

In the last five years, 14 people shared Nobel prizes in physics. 6 received their doctorates at American universities, and a seventh got an MSEE at an American university, for a total of 7 (50%). Of the 14 prizewinners, 11 (79%) were affiliated with American institutions at the time they won their prize. The figures for Britain were zero and zero over that same period.

Below the exalted pure-science Nobel level, Americans also seem to do well at the bachelors and masters level. American engineers have produced a tremendous flow of technological innovation, from the integrated circuit to the internet. Not only that, but American ability to commercialize these inventions and turn them into useful products is world class. American entrepeneurship is unsurpassed.

Bottom line: If British degrees outclass their American counterparts to the extent asserted, wouldn't one expect to see some evidence of that superiority out there in real life, and not just in newsgroup posts?

 

Re: Re: Re: Equivalency

Actually Scott made the argument. He wrote:

"The American secondary school system is 4 years in length. Where do you account for the 2 years of British secondary school A-Levels in the American educational system? They do not exist.

Therefore, by the time a British high school student graduates, he/she has completed 2 years of university-level education. Coupled with a 3 or 4 year honours degree, this is 5 or 6 years of university-level education. Assuming all else is equal, it's just a matter of years put in. Simple math."

Thus, Lawrie I think you made my point we are looking at competencies -- to this I agree. Thus. if the American degrees were not comparable then why are they accepted for postgraduate study -- as you noted there is utility and I would argue that "utility" is based on competency. Otherwise, American degrees would not be accepted. Unless you want to argue that British institutions are also lax in their admission standards.

Why do British students want to study at American universities? In your mindset it would be so they could earn a substandard degree and return to the UK. Hogwash -- get real!

John

 

Some of the discussion seems to be based more on nationalistic sentimentality rather than facts. Now, as did a couple other posters, please allow to briefly share my experience with this subject matter.

I am a product of American post-secondary education. However, my primary and secondary education were undertaken largely in a former British colony. That country (Guyana) still has an educational system based on the British system, but somewhat adapted to the CARICOM region.

I entered high school at age 11 after passing a competency exam to determine my readiness for the academic program. It should be noted, that some students entered high school as early as age 9, while the average entered at 10. By age 15, I was preparing to complete high school and take the British Ordinary Level (O Levels) examination and/or the comparable exam issued by the Caribbean Examination Council (CXC).

At that time, my parents moved me to the US. The New York Board of Education, without seeking to determine any competency, decided that at age 15, I could not conceivably be ready to finish high school. I was returned to the 9th grade. High School in NY was a breeze. I had already studied almost all of the subject matter and was merely repeating it. Whereas, high school was demanding in Guyana, I was a honor student in New York with little or no effort.

The fact is, our system placed us slightly ahead of the New York high schools. Does this suggest inferiority of the American educational system? Hardly. It simply indicates that the British structure is of such that those of us who are graduates of it, are a little ahead.

Now, I don't know if the same holds true once a person enters the university level. However, a close friend of mine, completed her Advanced level Certificates (A-Levels) in Jamaica. When she came to the US and we attended college together, she was placed as Junior based on her high school accomplishments at the A-levels.

Just my two cents.

 

Lawrie,

Thanks for the tip! If I ever decide to pursue a REAL degree I will definitely search your website.

Ooops, gotta go! I'm doing a 45 minute residency for my two week Ph.D.

BA (RA)
MA (RA/ATS)
D.Min. (RA/ATS)

 

Confirmation

"Now, I don't know if the same holds true once a person enters the university level. However, a close friend of mine, completed her Advanced level Certificates (A-Levels) in Jamaica. When she came to the US and we attended college together, she was placed as Junior based on her high school accomplishments at the A-levels."


EXACTLY what I was saying. A-Levels are generally equivalent to the first two years of an American university program. An HND will complete the other two.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Equivalency

But they are in school for the same number of school years, John. The point is that they are learning to a higher level in that SAME period of time. THAT is why they are ahead. Again, as I went to great trouble to explain in that area you marked "Large snip", time in this context is a measure of relative competence. Time is used as a measure of relative academic attainment as in, "John is two years ahead of Bob in level of accomplishment". That does not necessarily mean John has been studying two years longer than Bob, but rather that John has a degree of competence relative to Bob, equivalent to an extra two years of study.

I wrote about the components comprising degree utility in the article, "The College Name Game", available here
http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/collegenamegame.html .

Utility need bear no relation whatsoever to anything real, at all. It can do, but it need not necessarily do so. It is decidedly not the case that academic excellence (in terms of required competencies for a degree) need accompany high utility. Utility is, for most schools, outside of their local culture and space, entirely virtual. That is, in most cases, the utility of a degree in the wider cultural space is entirely unrelated to its intrinsic academic worth. In fact YOU have often argued that very point as it relates to NSU degrees, complaining they are sometimes unfairly undervalued.

No, you have resorted to a device because there is nothing solid underpinning your position. You are speculating, pure and simple. I understand, and I truly am sympathetic. It is not my intention or wish, to injure you in any way. It does seem though that you prefer to get hot under the collar rather than do the necessary digging to establish truth. Start with A-level Physics and Math. That was your undergraduate field wasn't it? Compare with requirements at US college 1st and 2nd year. Be sure to check past exam papers and scoring rubrics. Work up the scale from there. If you are going to argue the case, you will get further by doing so from a sound position based on empirical evidence. I have seen the evidence on from both sides and I know whereof I speak. Why would I lie to you? I hold US degrees. I will have both US and UK masters degrees, and, if providence spares me, most likely a US doctorate. I have already thrown my hat into the ring by choosing to earn US degrees. Why on earth would I choose to unfairly devalue that which I own or intend to own? It simply makes no sense. I have a UK HND in Applied Math and an HNC in Computer Technology, that with the addition of 90 cents, might buy me a cup of coffee here. Neither have much in the way of utility, yet both are academically sound, and the courses of the HND in particular are at the level of a US bachelor degree with a major in math. And again, we have the evidence of the Dearing report. You demanded evidence, yet when it is not to your liking you simply ignore it. I have the experience of having gone through US degree requirement and UK degree requirements personally and I can compare the two head to head, and attest to the superior nature of one over another. Yet you dismiss that testimony as bunk because it does not gel with your untested, and unverified position. Don't shoot the messenger John.

I am real John, and I have in depth experience of both systems. You do not. Apparently you think vitriol an acceptable substitute for reason, experience, and evidence. Again, I invite you to do your own research. Clearly you think I am lying to you. I have no reason to do so. I hold US degrees and I will earn more. I have told you the truth but apparently, you can't handle that.



.

 

Hi, Scott

Welcome aboard, Scott!

I've been following this thread and find the comparison between the educational systems interesting. What I can't figure out, though, is why it matters.

You mentioned in your opening post that you were a Canadian, and that:

I am a curious about the equivalency of American and British academic qualifications (external or internal) and some assumptions made about them.

I interpret your statement to mean that American degrees, generally, are less rigorous than the Canadian or British equivalents. Is that what you mean?

Do Canadian colleges have different entrance requirements? That is, would I be admitted to a Canadian Master's program with a regionally-accredited American Bachelor's degree? Or, would the school assume my undergraduate work was a year short? Are holders of Canadian Bachelor's degrees (packed with extra learning) granted advanced standing when admitted to American Master's programs?

Other than noting that our higher education systems are somewhat different and that you People Up North spell favor and color kinda funny, am I missing something?

Regards,


Tony

(why hasn't Ken/lewchuk/walterrogers shown up yet?)

 

Re: Re: Equivalency

Well, we did see it in the findings of the Dearing report, clearly and unambiguously stated*

We saw evidence of it in my testimony, based on practical experience.

Bear in mind that there is absolutely nothing to stop you comparing UK and US courses level for level. Why do you choose not to do that? Wouldn't that be the best method of sorting this out? Satisfy yourself?

Anyway, I did go do a brief check to see if US colleges would give students with UK A-levels some exemption from course work. They should do if A-levels are indeed more advanced than US high school graduation. I mean, they might not give all the credit or exemptions deserved, but if they are that much ahead, the should give some, right?


Well, have a look at the results. A-levels are consistantly awarded a years worth of credit, and none of the institutions listed are known to be overgenerous in this regard.


SAMPLE SELECTION OF US SCHOOLS OFFERING ADVANCED PLACEMENT OR CREDIT FOR BRITISH A-LEVELS

PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY - 8 SEMESTER CREDITS PER A-LEVEL
British
'A' Levels Pepperdine requires 2 A-Level passes (A-C) and 3 subject passes (A-C) in O-Level, CSE grade 1, or GCSE grades A-C. Official copy required. What is Official? Pepperdine grants 8 semester credits per Advanced Level courses with final grades of 'C' or better


http://www.pepperdine.edu/seaver/admission/OISS/IntlCurriculum.htm#British%20'A'%20Levels



DUKE UNIVERSITY - YEAR OR MORE OFF FOR A-LEVELS
Similarly, students who present superior results on the British "A" levels, the French Baccalaureate, the German Arbitur, or Swiss Maturite Certificate may also be eligible for such credit and placement. Such placement would make it possible for the recipient to complete an undergraduate degree course leading to a B.A. or
B.S. degree in less than the customary four years.

http://www.duke.edu/web/ug-admissions/intstud/visa.htm


GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY - UP TO A YEAR OFF FOR A-LEVELS
Transfer credit will be awarded for the French Baccalauréat, the Italian Maturitá, the Swiss Maturité, the German Abitur, and the British A-Levels. Up to a year credit is awarded for subjects in which students have taken a national or state examination.

http://www.georgetown.edu/undergrad/admissions/testing.html


WESKEYAN COLLEGE - 2 COURSES OFF PER A-LEVEL
British 'A' Levels: Students with superior 'A' Level results may petition the appropriate department of the University for up to two credits (the equivalent of two semester courses) for an 'A' Level so passed.

http://www.admiss.wesleyan.edu/applyoutside.html


COURSES ARE 1/2 UNIT OR 1 UNIT AT KENYON COLLEGE - 3 TO 6 COURSES OFF FOR A-LEVELS
Students who complete university entrance examinations of other countries, such as the French Baccalaureate, the British A Levels, or the German Abitur, may receive up to three units of credit at Kenyon. The registrar, in consultation with faculty

http://www.kenyon.edu/admissions/procedures/internationalexams/


MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE - 1 YEAR OFF FOR A-LEVELS
The major European examination certificates, such as the French Baccalauréat, International Baccalaureate, Swiss Maturité, Artium Examination, British A levels, and German Abitur, are normally considered to have a value of one full academic year if students receive scores that indicate excellent performance.

http://www.middlebury.edu/~records/Transfer%20Credits.html



* DEARING REPORT - APPENDIX 5 SECTION 7.1
"The team gained the impression, based on an inspection of syllabuses and examination papers, that the American high school diploma compares in standard with GCSE and the associate degree with GCE A-level and Advanced GNVQ, the bachelor’s degree with a UK pass degree or higher national diploma and the Master’s degree with a bachelor’s honours degree from a British university. "

See http://www.ncl.ac.uk/ncihe/
Appendix 5 Section 7.1

 

More info

Tony,

Here is an example you might find interesting: A Canadian community college graduate of a two-year program (equivalent to the American associate degree) will be granted two years of advanced standing towards an American bachelor's degree. Nothing surprising here. In fact, this is quite a common method of Canadians looking for admission to American BA/BS degrees.

HOWEVER, this same Canadian community college graduate will likely be granted only admission (with no, or very little advanced standing) to a Canadian bachelor's degree program, and only if the GPA is acceptable (minimum 3.0 on a 4.0 scale). Ironic, isn't it?

Is the Canadian standard higher than the American? Likely. Is the Canadian standard as good as the British, probably not. So Canada, like Australia, is generally somewhere in the middle between the US and UK as far as academic standards are concerned.

Yes, American undergraduates can obtain admission to Canadian graduate degrees if the appropriate GPA is met with high SAT and GRE scores as a supplements. Canadian undergraduates usually do not require GRE scores for admission and we do not have SAT scores.

So, yes, there is a difference between Canada and the United States.

 

Well, the UK secondary education system is being overhauled, so this flamefest is probably moot. The Green Paper.

I agree with some of the more modest ideas that have emerged towards this end of the thread (e.g. that A levels may be equivalent of up to a year of US college). But not with the more extreme opinions stated at the outset. I should have recognized flame bait when I saw it...

 

The British Council(as well as Lawrie and Scott) compare the American bachelor to a British HND/simple bachelor(not honours). With a HND/simple bachelor you are eligible to enter in the UK a master program. If an American bachelor and a British HND/simple bachelor are equivalent( or nearly equivalent) shouldn't it be natural for holders of American bachelor degrees to be accepted into British master programs? What's the problem?


Dennis Siemens

 

Masters

Since a British HND is acceptable to gain entry into a British master's program, so should an American bachelor's degree be. Since the HND/Pass Degree is equivalent to an American bachelor's degree this is only logical.

I think it was mentioned before that just because were share common terminology (remember it was the Americans that decided to continue with British degree terminology after the American Revolution) it should not mean everything else is equal.

It was not my intention to "put down" American academic qualifications, just shed some light on the differences between the US and UK in this matter.

Most people would think bachelor's = bachelor's, master's = master's, doctorate = doctorate, but this is simply not true. I thank Lawrie for providing actual documentation to support this and the testimonials of others as well from Guyana and Jamaica where the British system is in place.

Maybe the US has produced more Nobel Laureates and top scientists, however, there are other factors (such as funding and cultural factors!) that may influence this.

 

Well, I am a little overwhelmed. After about ten years in various American graduate scholls, including 6 at the somewhat slovenly University of California, I feel ready for high school in England! After which I plan to return to America where I will practice medicine, make myself available to advise George W, and pastor an Anglican church. Britannia rules the waters!

Late,
Craig Hargis esq.

 

This is not particularly pointed at rinni: this shows generally how pointless it is to make a superficial comparison of educational systems. German university-bound and trade-bound (I don't know the proper term) students are separated into different school systems. This is not the case in American high schools.

American students have the same opportunity to study math, physics, chemistry, et al as European students. At their whim and upon their show of scholastic capability, American students may take those course, including honors courses in their high schools.

In addition, my state has legislatively mandated that university-level courses be available to achieving high school students at "no cost" (but for the taxes).

To compare apples to apples, then, you must consider all German students. Else, if you only want to consider gymnasium students, then you must only look at university-track American students. (Don't ask me how to do that; I don't know.)

You might not "like" that both types of students attend the same school, but you can't ignore that fact if you're actually after the truth. It's just a building; various processes can occur there.

To assign the same meaning to all American high school diplomas is equivalent to assigning the same meaning to German gymnasium and German trade school diplomas.

To make matters worse, the United States is a union of the various states, each of which designs her own educational systems. (It is a big country.)

 

Re: Masters

In terms of utility it is. If a job requires a candidate with a Ph.D., the employer isn't going to accept a masters degree just because it happens to be British. If the job requires a masters, employers won't make an exception for a British BA(hon).

This speaks to the issue of competence.

Previous posts have argued that even if British degrees don't have the superior utility that they deserve, they certify more competent graduates. My point is that if these graduates are truly more competent, then you would expect that competence to be demonstrated in some way. If it isn't, then it's just an abstraction.

You are claiming essentially that American doctorates are equivalent to British masters degrees with attitude. British doctorates are a different animal entirely, something "higher". But whatever this 'higher' is supposed to mean, it is hollow if it doesn't end up producing better performing scholars. I am pointing out that American Ph.D.s are certainly performing just as well as Britain's, producing research and scholarship that is at least on the same level.

The argument can be extended from pure physics research to any field and level you wish. American BSEEs and MSEEs against British, for example. MBAs against MBAs. In every field of human endeavor, whether it is computer science, agriculture or philosophy, American unversity graduates make an excellent showing, even when compared to Commonwealth countries.

 

Re: More info

Thanks for the example, and for the information, Scott. I did not realize that the apparent degree of difference (pun intended) between our respective systems existed.

As for me, since my plans include a US Master's degree, and all of the programs I have considered have required a regionally-accredited Bachelor's of prospective applicants, my soon-to-be-completed Excelsior degree should suffice. I did take a gander at the Dalhousie MBA, but decided it wasn't a good fit.

Regards,


Tony

 

Now I understand why Prince Charles thought Camilla Parker Bowles was prettier than Princess Diana? Man, those Brits are light years ahead of us Yanks when it comes to academe.

 

I don't believe that it's safe to make these broad generalizations; there is a great disparity in level and quality of education between US schools (both secondary and college/university). For example, most of my (public) high school courses were either AP or honors courses, and the majority of them used college text books. From what I can tell, this is pretty typical for students attending non-rural high schools in a college preparatory curriculum. Rural (i.e. small) schools don't seem to generally offer this type of curriculum.

How does a US Bachelor's degree from an honors program fit into all of this? Most honors programs seem to require a thesis or project of some sort as well as more rigorous/advanced coureswork than a typical Bachelor's degree. I find it hard to believe that this type of degree wouldn't be considered at least equivalent to a British or Canadian Honours Bachelor's degree.