International Comparison of Academic Qualifications (External and Internal)

This is not particularly pointed at rinni: this shows generally how pointless it is to make a superficial comparison of educational systems. German university-bound and trade-bound (I don't know the proper term) students are separated into different school systems. This is not the case in American high schools.

You're absolutely correct -- I missed to mention that. Students are placed in one of three school systems (Gymnasium, Realschule and Hauptschule) based on a test they take at (4th grade) approx. age 10 -- much too young, in my opinion. I appreciate the more egalitarian U.S. educational system, in that respect. [B/]


When we speak about the German educational system, I think a similar debate with similar arguments could start. Let me do one remark in this regard: The German Abitur takes you 13 years to complete(though there is currently a discussion to reduce it to 12 years). A German bachelor(which was introduced along with the master degree at German universities recently) takes you 3 years to complete. The American High School is 12 years long and the bachelor 4 years. So the amount of time traditionally spend in a German educational system from primary school to the bachelor is equal to the amount of time spend in the American educational system, namely 16 years. So the German and American Bachelor should be considered as equivalent, at least if you assume that German students learn as much material during a/an school/academic year as their American counterparts do. But I guess not everyone will share this opinion. Any thoughts on that?

Here is an article about the mutual recognition of American and European academic degrees and the problems that arise:
http://www.cepes.ro/hed/recogn/groups/guideusa.htm

Dennis Siemens

 

Interesting take, Tom, and I think you are among the first to look at it the most effective way, i.e., in terms of relative content of the respective degrees. That is how the Dearing team developed their position and reached their conclusions.

Anyway, could you provide citations for the UK pass degree equating to the US AA degree + a bit? Entry into a UK degree is at A-level standard, US AA degree is about A-level standard*, though some argue here it is A-level standard + 1 year.

Even accepting that (for the moment), the UK pass degree is three years beyond A-level. For your analysis to be correct, UK pass degree holders would have had to complete the equivalent of not more than one year US sophomore college work, or one year and a bit, during their three years of study at UK university. I do not think that credible. However, I am willing to be convinced.

Your example of the ABET engineering degree is well taken, and I doubt that anyone would dispute your observations in that respect. It underscores that we are talking about averages and the situation in general. There are clearly going to be exceptions and anomalies. From my brief look at requirements at UC Santa Barbara, for instance, I gained the impression that their degrees from bachelor level to Ph.D. in the technical fields I perused, stand equal to any in the UK in terms of
rigor and required accomplishment (and often then some).

One last point, you say that your experience has been that generally UK and US master's degrees tend to be at about the same level. Could you detail the exact nature of your experience? I'm sure it would add much to the debate.

* DEARING REPORT - APPENDIX 5 SECTION 7.21
. . .
See <http://www.ncl.ac.uk/ncihe/>
Appendix 5 Section 7.21

[/i]

 

Re: HND

That was not my finding in a brief search. As stated previously, an HND or UK pass degree normally provide entry to the Postgraduate Diploma level of a graduate program which usually articulates into the master's portion of the program. For the sake of space I have restricted the number of examples / citations




British Council
Postgraduate Diplomas
"Postgraduate diploma courses consist of nine or twelve months formal training. Entry requirements are a first (or undergraduate) degree, a Higher National Diploma (HND), or equivalent. "
http://www.britishcouncil.org.au/education/Newmanagement.htm

CONTINUING EDUCATION GATEWAY:
Postgraduate Qualifications
Taught courses leading to a Postgraduate Diploma and / or a Masters degree are run at universities and some colleges. A Diploma normally takes 9 months full time study, a Masters degree, 12 months full time. Some postgraduate courses are available part time.
The entry requirement is normally an appropriate degree, or, in some cases, an HND. For direct entry to a Masters course, an Honours degree is normally required.
http://www.ceg.org.uk/general/CertHE,+DipHE,+Degree.htm


University of Huddersfield
MSC SCIENTIFIC COMPUTING
MSC SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT
MSC INFORMATION SYSTEMS
An honours degree or equivalent in a numerate discipline, or a postgraduate diploma.
Entrants should also have experience in a procedural programming language.
Applicants with other qualifications for example HNC or HND, may be accepted for the Postgraduate Diploma, and if successful, may continue for an MSc.
http://www.hud.ac.uk/mast/compu/mscsc.htm
MSc Information Systems
Entry requirements for the MSc are an honours degree or equivalent or postgraduate diploma. Applicants with other qualifications, for example HND, may be accepted for the Postgraduate Diploma, and if successful, may continue for an MSc.
http://www.hud.ac.uk/mast/compu/mscis.htm
http://www.hud.ac.uk/mast/compu/mscsd.htm



University of Birmingham
MSc/Diploma Advanced Food Manufacture
Duration: 2 - 3 years (part time)
Typical minimum entry: MSc: 2nd class hons physical, biological or chemical science degree or engineering degree Diploma: HND, HND or similar plus significant industrial experience
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston
Birmingham B15 2TT
Tel: 0121 414 5291/5275
Fax: 0121 414 3626
E:mail: [email protected]

University of Aberdeen validated Scottish Agricultural College MSc/Postgraduate Diploma
ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS
"The normal entry requirement for the Postgraduate Diploma is a degree in agriculture. Graduates of related disciplines will be considered if they can demonstrate significant knowledge and experience of farming practices. Candidates with an HND and experience may also be eligible. Candidates wishing to progress to the MSc project should normally have a good honours degree (or its equivalent) on entry. The course is also open to those who may not be seeking a formal award, but
who are interested in studying selected units."
http://www.sac.ac.uk/education/External/Postgradprosp/organic.htm


Staffordshire University
SCHOOL OF ART & DESIGN - MA Interactive Multimedia
Contact Details
School Office
t: 01782 294565
Entrance Requirements
Honours degree in design or equivalent or HND and professional experience.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/postgraduate2002/a&d/06.html


University of Bath
Department of Architecture and Civil Engineering
Master of Science and Postgraduate Diplom in Façade Engineering
7.0 Entrance Requirements Page 9/36
Places on the courses are normally offered to applicants with:
A first degree at 2.1 or above
A first degree below 2.1 with several years relevant industry experience
An HND or equivalent with 10 years relevant industry experience
http://staff.bath.ac.uk/abssrl/msc/handbook.pdf

University of Staffordshire
THE POSTGRADUATE BUSINESS PROGRAMME
Master in Business AdministraEntry Requirements
British Students
Entry Requirements
DEGREE - Any Discipline
HNC/D - A good HND/C in Business Studies and/or Finance
EXPERIENCE - Applicants without the above qualifications may be accepted if they have appropriate business experience
http://web.staffs.ac.uk/schools/business/bsadmin/staff/s5/general%20testing/cba7.htm


Sheffield Hallam University
Postgraduate taught courses - applicants should normally be 21 years old by 31 December in the year of entry and should possess
a first degree or professional qualification recognised as being equivalent to degree standard or
an HND accompanied by substantial experience in an appropriate field
http://www.shu.ac.uk/prospectus/pg/applyt.html

Brunel University
MSc in Data Communication Systems
MSc in Data Communication Systems by distance learning
Entry Requirements
Normal entry requirements for all the MSc courses are an Honours degree or equivalent in a range of subjects. Alternatively, a HND plus several years' relevant post-HND experience is normally acceptable. In addition, candidates with qualifications not fitting these categories will also be considered. Requirements for individual courses may vary from this norm.
http://www.brunel.ac.uk/depts/ee/PStud/MScintro.htm


University of Coventry
POSTGRADUATE COURSES: PART TIME ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
All holders of appropriate degrees, HND and HNC are invited to apply, full credit will be given to a potential delegate’s industrial experience. In certain exceptional circumstances, other qualifications may be considered.


University of Central Lancashire
Management
PGCert Management (PGCM)
Diploma in Management Studies (DMS)
MBA Change Management pathway

PGCert Management (PGCM)
standard entry requirements
This course is suitable for a variety of candidates including those with a degree or HND/C or equivalent professional qualification or professional, managerial or other appropriate experience

Diploma in Management Studies (DMS)
Department of Management
standard entry requirements
This course is designed for a variety of candidates including those with a degree or HND/C, or equivalent professional qualifications or professional, managerial or other appropriate experience.
http://www.uclan.ac.uk/pg/section3/manage.htm

Sheffield University
MA/MSc/Diploma Programmes: Leisure Management
Entry Requirements
All Masters applicants must have:
a degree awarded by the University, or by any institution or body recognised by the Senate; or
a postgraduate diploma, or an equivalent qualification awarded by an institution or body recognised by Senate and of a standard acceptable to the Faculty of Social Sciences.
All Diploma applicants must have:
an HND of sufficient merit or a degree awarded by the University or by any institution or body recognised by Senate; or
an appropriate professional qualification awarded by an institution or body recognised by Senate and of a standard acceptable to the Faculty of Social Sciences.
http://www.sums.ac.uk/msc/lm/entry.htm

University of Middlesex Reaseach Degrees
Research admissions and application
Entry requirements
Undertaking a research degree relies heavily on strong motivation, so considerable personal commitment is essential for success.
To enrol for a BPhil (with or without transfer to MPhil): you should normally hold at least a third class honours degree, a general degree, a diploma of higher education, an HND, or an equivalent professional qualification.
To enrol for an MPhil (with or without possible transfer to PhD):
http://www.mdx.ac.uk/apply/research/

Royal College of Agriculture
Postgraduate study at the RAC
MBA/MSc or Postgraduate Diploma
Entry requirements
The normal requirement is for a degree, a good H.N.D. or professional qualifications. The course also welcomes suitable non-graduates with relevant work experience.
http://www.royagcol.ac.uk/postgrad_courses/course_sheets/afm.htm

University of Salford
School of Aeronautical, Civil and Mechanical Engineering Diploma students study the taught elements of the MSc programme but there is no dissertation requirement. However, Diploma students who have passed the modules at MSc level may be considered for transfer to the MSc programme.
Pg Diploma Programme
Candidates should normally possess an appropriate Ordinary Degree of a British university, an HNC/HND plus four years relevant industrial or professional experience or an equivalent overseas qualification approved by Senate.
http://www.acme.salford.ac.uk/civils/Dept/Courses/mscstructe.htm

 

Re: HND

Dennis wrote in a prior post:
"The British Council(as well as Lawrie and Scott) compare the American bachelor to a British HND/simple bachelor(not honours). With a HND/simple bachelor you are eligible to enter in the UK a master program"

then wrote

1. A UK 2:2 honors degree is a normal requirement for entry into a master's program, however, entry to graduate study is normally available for holders on the HND or a pass degree via the postgraduate diploma component of a graduate program (PgD/MSc PgD/MA PgD/LMM etc.)

2. No, an HND WILL normally or often qualify you for entry into a UK graduate program as noted above. See my previous post for concrete examples.

Well, yes, but the question is how do we determine which conclusion is the correct one.

3. It has been explained many times during the course of this thread that utility does not necessarily equate with quality. The fact that a US degree is often accepted for direct entry into a UK master's program is not evidence of its academic superiority to the HND, nor evidence of academic parity in terms of competencies with the UK bachelor degree. And indeed, as a holder of both the UK HND and two US bachelor degrees, it is my judgment based on first hand experience, that the HND and the US bachelor degree are at about the same academic level, i.e. that of a UK pass degree. Dearing's team reached the same conclusion by inspecting course materials and course examinations for content and rigor. This is the only valid way to compare degrees, that is, on the basis of the detail of their content. Not inferentially on the basis of who accepts what from whom.

 

Example

"A two year full-time taught mechanically related MSc, in addition to a HNC/HND can be considered."

http://www.imeche.org.uk/imeche_new_010801/html/become_member/academic_requirements.htm

The above is a quote from the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers for corporate membership. It indicates that if one does not possess an accredited UK BEng(Hons) degree, then an HND + MSc can be considered.

This is pretty standard across all the UK engineering institutions.

 

If British scholars, scientists and business managers are more competent than those of America, would somebody please tell me where they are hiding the evidence of their superior accomplishment?

 

For what it is worth, over the years I have heard a number people (including one last week) with direct experience in both US/Canadian or US/British education and they have been unanimous in there judgement that, on average, the Canadian/British systems require a much higher level of academic rigor than the US system.

Sorry folks, that is just the way it is...

and God Bless America.

 

A few commnets from another board...

It's hard to make direct comparisons because the USA has no standardised assessment or quality control systems for its educational system, either at high school or college.

A US degree can mean lots or nothing.

That's in the process of changing, many US schools are operating the IBO assessement system and few in Virginia and Florida have gone over entirely to the International version of the UK education system.

A difficulty for anyone producing distance teaching materials for the US market is that they generally have to made less rigourous than the those for the UK market. The Open University degree's now available in the US are 'cut down' from the UK courses. We have an on going debate as to whether we should do the same for our materials - a decision is yet to be made.

HW have apparently not gone down this road, and comments I have seen suggest that many Americans find the learning approach very difficult - but of a very high standard and well worth the effort.



.... The difficulty for many Americans to appreciate that on an academic level the British Education system is moving to becoming 'the international standard' against which qualifications are measured.

This is not a accident, the UK system has evolved over the years to create structures for the quality control and assement of examinations at high school, associate degree, undergraduate degree and postgrad that are not found in any other system.

Also, with the UK's historical tradition of having to deliver qualifications over what was once a far flung Empire, there is considerable experience with distance learning and adaptation of course material to foreign requirements. The first distance learning courses were produced by London University and UK civil service for Government employees in the 19th century.

In the past Americans have had little contact with the UK education system, but HW has changed all that, as has the IBO programme for schools (notionally 'international' but in reality operated from Wales). A few schools in Florida and Virginia have chosen to go over entirely to the UK operated 'IGCSE' high school system.

The benefits for the schools concerned in the USA are not huge (IGCSE is meaningless to most Americans) but the programme is an international standard - these schools can accurately compare thier results against schools in the UK, Egypt, Jordan, India, Switzerland, Spain and over 100 countries that operate the same programme.

The same is true of colleges throughout the world - including China, India, Russia, and elsewhere that operate the UK HND 'Associate Degree' programme.

So my point is that there is really no comparison between a UK accredited degree and one in the US. You are comparing something defined and regularly quality controlled with a nebulous, 'feeling' that Americans have about thier particular qualification or educational establishment.

You may well be able to make a fine PC computer from compenents - If you had to choose between half a dozen homebuild machines and a Dell and had say 10 seconds to make decisions - which would you choose?

The answer is obvious.

As I said in another post, watch out for when US Community Colleges go for HND accreditation. That will be the end of the US education system as you know it.

And this isn't a matter of British hubris, both US adminstrations (Clinton and Bush) have been in consultation with the UK government about the use of the UK system as a model. Both Laura Bush and Clinton have had direct experience working in UK education.

 

How many American RA PhD's? 500, 600? I don't know (but I bet someone will tell me!).

The National Office of Overseas Skills Recognition (NOOSR) http://www.detya.gov.au/noosr/sitemap.htm
only grants Australian equivalency to 250 or so RA doctorates.

What does that mean?

 

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/Classification/CIHE2000/Tables.htm

 

Here is another "way it is..."

The UK only has 100 universities.

The US has half the universities in the world (3000-3500 if memory serves) and educates twice as many people per capita as the UK at the post-secondary level. (25% of US citizens over the age of 25 have four or more years of post-secondary education.) Obviously, the US has a much different philosophy of education.

Another thing is obvious from the above: since the US educates "only" twice as many people per capita as the UK but has a huge inventory of universities by comparison, many of these universities are very small and specialized.

If it is equitable to compare 3000 US institutions to 100 UK institutions, then why don't we compare the top 3 US universities to the 100 UK universities? It is about the same ratio. Obviously such comparisons are totally meaningless.

I hate to re-post something from another thread, even in part. <pause> I've gotten over it. Here is a compromise plan for whirled peas:

Negotiated comparison of UK/US universities
1) The top 100 U.K. universities (which is to say, all of them) are equal to the top 100 U.S. universities.

2) The next 1 to 500 U.S. universities, depending on whom you ask, might be equal to the top 100 U.K. universities.

3) The next 500 U.S. univerities might be equal to the top 100 U.K universities, but some are more equal than others.

4) The next 2000 U.S. universities--

• are equal to each other,
• are equal to the previous 500 U.S. universities, but some are less equal than others.
• will not be compared to the top 100 U.K. universities for the sake of trans-pond peace because 1/3 of the world's total universities should not be compared to the top 100 U.K. programmes on the general principle that it will annoy too many anglophiles.
  [/list=a]
  
  5) the next 500 U.S. RA universities will not be compared to anything. These are specialty schools for disciplines like blind tree felling, indoor elk hunting, and lounge singing for which there is no U.K. equivalent.
  
  
  http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/digest/ch1.html

 

Excellent and I'll put my dibs on these:

 

Comparing your US qualifications with those in the UK


The following information will give you brief advice on comparing your qualifications from those in the US to those awarded in the UK. This includes comparisons between marking systems in both countries. You can obtain more information on your qualifications and equivalences by writing to UK NARIC.

The US Department of Education does not regulate standards, oversee the establishment of institutions or provide accreditation. Public authority is constitutionally reserved to the states.

Accreditation is a voluntary, non-governmental process for educational institutions and professional programmes to assure an acceptable level of performance, integrity and quality. This recognition is given by institutional or professional associations which establish criteria for accreditation, arrange site visits, evaluate candidates and assign accreditation status. Institutional accreditation is granted by any one of the six regional bodies which operate in a specified geographical area of one of the accrediting commissions which cater to defined segments of higher education. For purposes of transfer credit, regional accreditation is the primary basis for consideration; however, decisions on transfer of credit are made by the individual admitting institutions. Regional accrediting associations are:

Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools
New England Association of Schools and Colleges
North Central Association of Colleges and Schools
North West Association of Schools and Colleges
Southern Association of Colleges and Schools
Western Association of Schools and Colleges
Other institutional accrediting bodies for specialised areas include:

American Association of Bible Colleges
Association of Independent Colleges and Schools
National Home Study Council
Association of Theological Schools
National Association of Trade and Technical Schools
Professional accrediting bodies review degree courses in specific areas such as business or engineering.

In most states education is compulsory from age six to sixteen.

The school year runs from September to June.

Evaluation in Britain
School
Higher
Marking systems
School
Higher


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Evaluation in Britain
School
High School Graduation Diploma - generally considered comparable to GCSE standard (grades A, B and C) provided an average of at least C is obtained in subjects which have counterparts in the GCSE syllabus. Students who have completed an academic programme (college prep., indicated by a 'p' after the subject on the transcript; an 'h' indicate honours) exceeding the required units (sometimes called Carnegie Units), and who are considered eligible for admission to prestigious American colleges and universities, may be considered to satisfy the general entrance requirements of British higher education institutions.

Students who have not completed an academic high school programme normally need to have studied for one or two years at an accredited American college or university before satisfying the general entrance requirements. However, some British higher education institutions will consider high school graduates whose qualifications include a good performance in the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT), usually not less than 500 in verbal and mathematical performance, plus SAT II (formerly achievement tests) in three subjects, or Advanced Placement Tests, in at least two, but preferably three or four subjects with marks of three and above.

Higher
Associate degree - may be considered to satisfy the general entrance requirements of British higher education institutions. Courses of a more vocational nature (Associate of Applied Arts or Science) may be considered comparable to the BTEC National Diploma/N/SVQ level three/Advanced GNVQ/GSVQ standard.

Bachelor degree - diversity is the key to American higher education with more than 3,000 institutions offering post-secondary education. This means a uniform standard of Bachelor degree is impossible. Students who have attended a regionally accredited institution, have gained good grade-point averages (GPA - normally at least 3.0), both overall and in individual courses, have taken advanced-level courses in appropriate subjects, have accumulated sufficient credits in major courses (typically between thirty and fifty-four), and have good academic references, may be considered for admission to postgraduate study. For further information enquirers should contact the National Academic Recognition Information Centre (NARIC). NARIC does not comment on institutions which are not regionally accredited.

Master's degree - in terms of specialisation, the American Master's degree from prestigious colleges and universities is considered comparable to the British Bachelor (Honours) degree. Candidates who have followed academically rigorous programmes have reached a standard comparable to that of a British taught Master's degree.

 

US Accredited Colleges and Universities

The United States has 1400 accredited four-year colleges and universities. The population of the US is 278,000,000 persons. This means that there is 1 university per approximately 200,000 persons.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/alpha_dir/index.htm

The United Kingdom has 97 universities that grant a minimum bachelor degree. The population of the UK is 60,000,000 persons. This means there is 1 university per approximately 620,000 persons.

http://specials.ft.com/universities2001/FT3HLLAN6LC.html


Most of the 97 UK universities grant degrees up to the Ph.D. level. However, only about 300 of the 1400 US universities and colleges grant degrees up to the Ph.D. level. The remainder are liberal arts colleges and master's comprehensive universities that only grant up to the master's level. The bulk of the US universities cannot even be compared to British universities.

 

Peter,

Can you provide a more specific link as I can't find what you are talking about. Here is what I found and see little discussion in how Australian degrees relate to overseas qualifications. All qualifications are discussed at: http://www.detya.gov.au/noosr/leaflets/to%20check/austedquals.htm

John

 

I can't provide a more specific link; the one I gave is to the NOOSR home page and I included it for general info.

I don't really want to get drawn into the "my country has a better education system than the USA debate" to the extent of making such a claim myself. Notwithstanding, comparing what constitutes (in time, effort and academic rigour) a degree in one jurisdiction as opposed to another is a legitimate debate for this NG.

As my friend Peter French has said in the past, the USA's education system is not inferior to, say, Australia's or Britain's, just different.

For what it is worgh, here is my view in comparing Australia with the USA:

Let us assume that the "quality" of a university degree (and I'll leave the definition to others at the moment) is distributed normally in both countries. Now look at the distribution in Australia: the curve is high and "squashed up" (to use a technical term) around the mean; there are few points at the very bottom or very top.

Now superimpose the USA on the graph. It shows a much flatter curve with a relatively high number of "outriders" at both ends indicating that quality varies much more from the bottom to the top. I would also say that the mean would be slightly to the left of the Australian mean.

Now what does this mean (pardon the pun)? Draw your own conclusions. Probably there are more really top quality universities in the US, but that the average quality is higher in Australia.

To return to the NOOSR equivalency ratings of US doctorates. NOOSR publish booklets on the equivalency of overseas university degrees to those in Australia. These cost serious money (serious for me, about $800) so I haven’t seen them and you can’t get the full set off the web site.

In my first post, I was being rather too general. It is my understanding that NOOSR are saying that it regards about 250 RA universities as issuing roughly equivalent degrees to those issued by Australian Universities. This means the many thousands of other RA institutions are not considered equivalent.

Other posters to this and to another recent thread titled "Value of US Degrees and the Open University UK" have made the very general point that US degrees, as a rule of thumb, rank about one step “behind” those in the British system. Now, as I’ve said above, I prefer to call this a “difference” rather than a “ranking”. We are not comparing apples with apples with a straight “your masters is the same as our bachelor” argument.

But that still leaves us with the fact that universities and regulatory authorities in both Britain and Australia do not generally regard most USA degrees as being of the same standard as home degrees. Make of that as you will.

Regards

 

The 2000 Carnegie Classifications only lists a total of 261 Doctoral/Research Univeristies (out 3941 institutions, which include all postsecondary schools). Perhaps the NOOSR only recognizes the PhD from about 250 RA universities because there are only about 250 RA universities that issue that type of degree.

Am I missing something here?

 

Well, you are missing my point, and I apologise for not making it clearer. In my second post I was correcting what I said in my first; that is, I was wrong to say "250 doctorates", I should have said "250 universities".

In other words, the degrees offered by about 250 US universities (some of which will offer doctorates) are considered equivalent to degrees granted by Australian universities. From NOOSR, that is all I know. From that piece of information I am prepared to say:
(1) I do not know how many of these 250 offer doctorates.
(2) There are many (the majority, ie. thousands?) of RA schools issuing bachelors and masters which are not considered to grant degrees equivalent to Australian degrees.

Look. There are many aspects of the US teriary education system that appeal to me. You seem to offer a better general education at university level but you also have a much wider choice of specialist schools and subjects. You have more institutions and, as it has been pointed out elsewhere, don't seem to have any trouble turing out first rate scholars, researchers, Nobel prize winners, and so on.

But the fact is, right or wrong, that the regulatory bodies in many countries do not see US degrees to be "equivalent" to their own and we could have a whole new argument over the ojectivity of those assessments.

Get over it, boys.

One last word on doctorates. In measuring the value of a doctorate, the most important aspect is the research/publishing record of the holder. Therefore an RA doctorate holder, in Australia or anywhere, will be judged more on their academic reputation and not from where the degree was sourced. The exceptions are, of course, degrees from the really prestigious schools and from those that have a reputation in a particular niche market (eg. certain business schools for MBA's). But graduates from those shcools are almost certian to have a good academic/publishing record anyway. Many, many faculty members at Australian universities have RA degrees, and whether they are from the 250 mentioned above or not I don't think really counted in their appointment.

Kind regards

 

A few posts ago I provided a link to a summary of the Carnegie Classification. Apparently Peter didn't bother to look at it. Well, here it is again. This time let me explain it.

http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/C...2000/Tables.htm

The Carnegie Foundation classifies colleges and universities by the highest degrees that they offer.

There are 3,941 colleges and universities in the United States.

261 of these are termed 'doctoral research universities'. They are optimized for research and offer many doctoral programs.

These are apparently what Peter Tucker is referring to in his extremely cryptic references to NOOSR. These schools account for the great bulk, but not all, of the doctorates granted in the United States. So if NOOSR is talking specifically about Ph.D.s, then it is close to being correct in concentrating on these institutions. Unfortunately, being close to correct is not the same thing as being correct. These 261 schools do not account for all doctorates granted. Some very prominent institutions are not found in this class. The Mayo Clinic, the Union Theological Seminary...

And if NOOSR is going beyond doctorates with this and is trying to suggest that bachelors and masters degrees are only acceptable if earned from a research university, then it is just making a fool out of itself.

611 universities are termed 'masters colleges and universities'. They vary in size from small to large, but are characterized by offering a considerable number of masters but few doctoral level programs. The California State University system is an example of these schools. Masters universities do sometimes offer doctorates, but these are usually only small programs in only one or two fields, often in education or sometimes law.

606 are called 'baccalaureate' colleges. They stress undergraduate education and include some of the best bachelors level programs in the United States. Amherst, Williams, Carlton, Middlebury, Reed, Pomona... If NOOSR won't recognize them, it reflects badly on nobody except NOOSR.

The total of these three classes is 1,478 which is sometimes taken (incorrectly) as the number of colleges and universities in the US. It is what 'US News' ranks, after excluding a few schools like Rockefeller University and UC San Francisco that don't have undergraduate programs.

1.669 additional schools are termed 'associates' colleges. These are what Americans call 'community colleges'. They offer the first two years of university programs as well as terminal trade and vocational things.

Personally, some of the very best instruction that I have ever received was at community colleges. Many of their classes are surprisingly good. Their faculty are often part-time folks who have day jobs in industry and government, and who are better informed often times then their tenured peers.

The remaining 766 schools are specialized institutions. There are 312 theological seminaries and other "specialized faith-based institutions", 54 stand-alone medical schools, 66 stand-alone engineering schools, 87 stand-alone art schools, plus many business and law schools, plus 28 "tribal colleges and universities" run by Indian tribes. I guess the military schools like West Point and Annapolis fall in this category too.

This is the American higher education system, all nicely categorized. What I want to knnow now is:

1. What is NOOSR doing, precisely?

2. What degree levels is NOOSR talking about?

3. Precisely which institutions, or classes of institutions, does NOOSR accept and reject? (If that's what it really is doing.)

4. What justification do they give for their actions, whatever they are?

5. What data are they appealing to? Clearly the Australians did not examine every school in the United States in detail, so how is it that they know the good from the bad? (Again, if that's really what's happening.)

Personally, I would bet that NOOSR is doing something completely innocuous like pointing out that there are only 261 research universities in the US. And the Peters, both French and Tucker, are repeating this Australian academic urban legend without really understanding any of it.

 

Oh, now I see. An urban legand, eh? What a misguided fool I've been.

Yeah, Bill. Whatever.