I am leaving the NCU DBA program........

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by truckie270, Apr 23, 2007.

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  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The admission was conditional on the reception of transcripts. However, I could have registered right away while my transcripts were received.
  2. Jigamafloo

    Jigamafloo New Member

    Same here, but that puts it in a bit different context.....had your application been fraudulent, wouldn't they have booted you from program when discovered?

    I'm a bit of a neophyte I guess; it's not like I apply to programs at the graduate level on a regular basis. So before I misspeak, is Touro's policy of conditional admission that unusual?

  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This is not an issue of TUI getting fraudulent applicants, this an issue of open admissions policies. This not so uncommon at the undegraduate level but not so common at graduate schools. However, this is not not just happening with for profits but also with non for profits. Many schools are just accepting master's students by filling up an online application, still not happening at the PhD level but it won't take long before it becomes a common thing.

    With the globalization, competition for students is becoming fierce and Universities are lowering the bar just to stay alive. I work for a Canadian University and some faculties are crying for students and decided to drop even basic english requirements. It is sad to see people with engineering degrees that can barely speak english but it happens.
  4. PhD2B

    PhD2B Dazed and Confused

    Okay, so I'm slightly off topic here.

    Dave, how is the dissertation going at Touro?

    That is the main thing I worry about. I know I can handle the coursework, but the dissertation is another animal entirely.
  5. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Dave Wagner, you've pointed out that you believe that open enrollments at for-profit schools are bad; yet you still have not provided a solution, though you've been asked to do so. Do you have a solution for your perceived problem -- or are you only able to identify what you perceive to be a problem? Pray tell?
  6. dlady

    dlady Active Member

    Additionally, since the NCU business school just received ACBSP accreditation, Dave Wagner’s theory now suggests that this fairly established and respected organization has just entered into a conspiracy to commit fraud with NCU, which makes this a global conspiracy of fairly large proportions.

    I eagerly await something other than rhetoric to substantiate these claims. In all honesty, if it is true, I really do want to know, as an NCU PhD student getting very close to the dissertation phase of the program.

    All ear here..
  7. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    It sounds like a conspiracy of biblical proportions! :eek: Nonetheless, I speculate that Dave Wagner will not offer a solution to what he sees as a problem (reference open enrollments at for-profit doctoral schools).
  8. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    By the way, please don't feed the NoCentral shill...

    The fictitious open-enrollment doctoral program scenario at a for-profit school was intended illustrate how fraudulent or negligent acts by at least one individual could overbook a doctoral program. In a for-profit school, there is every incentive to do so in the short term and leave that mess for your successors to clean up.

    Overbooking a doctoral program is tantamount selling a product that does not exist; at least there is intent to sell a product/service that cannot reasonably be delivered. Perhaps one could argue that valuable graduate credits were earned, but consumer protection laws prevent such bait and switch tactics. Aggressive overbooking of a doctoral program could generate enormous profits and then be partially explained as academic rigor. However, unreasonable attempts to make it impossible for consumers to take possession of a product within a normal time frame is illegal. It does not matter that doctoral students have to actually complete a dissertation, etc. to actually take possession of the diploma; the final product/service must exist or reasonably be expected to exist at the time of sale. An administrator in our fictitious scenario might argue that the school didn't know which 90% of the admitted students were not going to do the work to earn the promised diploma, and I truly wish that person the best of luck on the witness stand; they sold every diploma that could reasonably be expected to be awarded at least 10 times and perhaps 20 times.

    For your individual case, I would recommend that you start discretely asking questions about the number of students in the program. I don't know anything about the number of students in your program; I've just known a few people who are in the doctoral program. I don't recommend pre-texting and calling in as if you are prospective student, because that is lying. You can usually find out the number of graduates from the accreditor. Do the math. Talk to other students about their experiences. I suppose you could divide the number of students in the program by the number of graduates of say the last three years to get an idea of how much the doctoral program has been overbooked. An overbooked doctoral program is a fool's errand for the students; I suppose the only way to complete a fool's errand is to quit. By the way, I'm not recommending that you quit, but to keep your eyes open and to keep completing your studies.


    P.S. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2007
  9. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Dave Wagner, who is the "NoCentral" shill? :eek: Also, do you stand by your assertion I have multiple user names at DegreeInfo.com? :rolleyes: Ask the administrator at DegreeInfo.com. ;)

    Dave Wagner, you raised some interesting points, which raises more questions. My brother is a professor at a state B&M school who also graduated from a state B&M university. He has no affiliation with for-profit or online colleges or universities. He said that the attrition rate for B&M doctoral students is about 50 to 70%; and that it happens primarily at the dissertation stage. It would be interesting to see what the attrition rate is for doctoral students at for-profit schools so that it can be compared with the attrition rate at not-for-profit schools. Comparing the two would shed some light on this issue.
  10. dlady

    dlady Active Member


    Is there really a published limit to the number of PhD’s a school can award? Not some conceptual “more will make them look bad” kind of limit, or the old “if they award a lot they risk their accreditation” kind of thing (unless that is written down somewhere and really part of being accredited).

    In order for this to be real there needs to be a published “you have this many PhD’s a year to award”. If it is published, where? Because I do agree that if you can go look at the number, and then count the number of applicants, then at least there is some math going on here that could be understood..
  11. buckwheat3

    buckwheat3 Master of the Obvious

    Ol' Buddy people out there seem to be asking for the numbers... can you provide them in a timely manner?
  12. dlady

    dlady Active Member

    graduate full time graduate part time # D's %
    Iowa State University 2587 1996 281 6.13%
    Arazona State University 7010 4907 389 3.26%
    Arkansas State University 425 962 19 1.37%
    Ball State 1129 1819 66 2.24%
    University of Arizona 4842 2519 388 5.27%
    Northcentral University 1662 1770 37 1.08%
    Kansas State University 1751 2629 160 3.65%
    Capella University 1158 13567 499 3.39%

    I can’t get the table to present nice in the post, but I quickly went to the http://www.ncahlc.org website and grabbed these numbers off of the institutions page which show the last year reported numbers. I see absolutely nothing to suggest the conspiracy suggested.
  13. dlady

    dlady Active Member

    the numbers from above are:

    graduate full time
    graduate part time
    # D's
  14. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Friend, I await either a cogent argument or plausible facts to refute the fictitious, for-profit open enrollment doctoral program scenario. If you have either, I look forward to reading them.

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2007
  15. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Please remove the lint from your navel. :eek:
  16. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Hi. Time marches on. I'm trying to remember when you were looking for a doctoral program... was this a few years ago? I know you graduated quite awhile ago.

  17. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    Check the NCU website and you will see The ACBSP evaluation team consisted of representatives of two public NON-PROFIT universities and one private Christian NON-PROFIT university. You may wish to contact them with your concerns about what has been discussed here. Their response should prove very interesting!
  18. jmetro

    jmetro New Member


    Thanks dlady for saying exactly what we've been trying to get through on this topic for the last several days.

    You're absolutely correct! There doesn't seem to be anything but anecdotel (sp?) evidence that there is some kind of formal limit to the number of PhDs which can be minted each year. In fact if you think about it, there is logic to the concept but there doesn't seem to be any teeth.

    Good one!
  19. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    If you really think about it, you'll realize that the administrators in the fictitious for-profit open enrollment scenario had no intention of producing 200 scientists when they opportunistically admitted those students to the doctoral program, because of the long lead time necessary to hire professors to mentor the students. The enormous cohort of naive students did not have diplomas waiting for them, nor would it be possible to ramp up the academic staff to work with them. The (gifted and no so gifted) students were just there to pay and pay ad infinitum. P.T. Barnum was right.

  20. jmetro

    jmetro New Member

    That one is GOOD!!!

    You really are a genius, you know?

    Okay, I'll apply that argument in defense of your stance. Good argument.

    Based on that alone, you win the discussion.

    I've got a counter though. One that you're not going to like.

    A long time ago in a land far away I helped start a check collection business with a couple of partners of mine. They handled the money-end of the business and the business development. I handled the internal processes including operational functions and the technological systems to make the business run. It was briefly known as SureFunds before it was bought out by one of the partners and eventually bankrupted. There's a lot more to the story, of course, but I'm countering, not telling you my life story.

    Anyway, these folks did the oddest thing I've ever seen. They wrote up their contracts to include a 90 day lag before the hardware and software was to be delivered and my word, did the client's line up? Yes. We had lots of clients (hundreds) throughout the US. The funny thing was the way the money worked. When a new contract was signed it was used to fund the hardware and software purchases of previous contracts. As soon as I noticed (this was pre-MBA, BTW) I immediately asked my partners about the process because I kind of thought "ponzi-scheme" and all kinds of red flags went off in my head, like Dave Wagner's red-flags...

    One of them put it to me this way, "Does Ingram Micro have enough cash lying around to purchase $800M worth of products that you just ordered?" I said, "Probably not." He then responded, "If you ordered $800M worth of products on PO, how would Ingram Micro get the stuff to you?" I said, "I suspect they will either take on stort-term debt or fund the purchases from other incoming revenue until my check arrives?" He said, "Exactly right. The only way to buy the product when you don't have cash on hand is to take on a loan or to use the proceeds of other transactions to meet the obligations we have to our customers. It is only a ponzi scheme, if we don't have the intention of delivering or the power to deliver on either the previous or current orders. We will deliver on both, but that's why we have a 90-day lag built into the contracts."


    How does this apply to education, particularily PhDs to be issued by either profits or non-profits?

    Simple. Anytime you are starting a new business, your first order of business is the business model. Your second order of business is the cashflow. By admitting 200 PhD students in a quarter and assigning them all basic work that has been prepared in advance, you are keeping your end of the bargain whether you hire additional staff or not. It's only what happens after the pre-prepared work is finished that matters to the contract. The company can hire professors on demand (like "SOA" but instead of software as a service we're talking "SOP" or "SOT" - where we're looking at professors or teaching as a service). It looks like a ponzi-scheme until you see that the contracts really are being upheld just a cycle or so off.

    So, with that in mind, my estimate of being able to find out in 3-4 years how well for-profit schools are doing becomse a grand total of 6-8 years. We should know within a decade how effective this new system will be.

    If the scheme fails before it's time, then we know that the school was run by charlitans (sp) and hoodlums who should be forced at gunpoint to give back every dime plus interest and then spend the rest of their lives in jail writing curriculum or syllabi (whichever they hate worst). If the scheme continues to produce 200, and 300, and 400 PhDs by the end of the cycle, we'll know that society has successfully created a for-profit automated educational system.

    I believe that doing this will be for the best in the long-run. We must have less expensive training and education if we are to continue the dream of letting poor-folk like me live in a nice house, with a happy wife, and be gainfully employed. I agree that dilution is a factor to be considered but, I haven't thought far enough ahead to give you the Ultimate Answer for that one yet (except to create a "super" PhD).

    You gave me a good answer...They don't have the staff or capability to produce these PhDs.

    But my return makes far more sense...They don't have the staff or capability to produce these PhDs yet, but have a system in place that will make it possible.

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