How are 'Less-than-Wonderful' Graduates Hired at RA Universities?

How about name recognition?

Who would get associate professor posution?

A. Graduate with Masters degree from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, MIT etc.

B. Graduate with Masters degree from Texas A&M and Ph.D from ASU.

Universities in my opinion are looking for graduates from well known prestige world class universities.
In many cases this atracted students.

My friend David with BA, MA from Cal State LB and Ph.D from some unknown university in the east and a student of very good and known professors that published many books and him to he coautord books etc.

But never got a teaching job in state ot privet university.

I'm sure if he had UC Berkeley, MIT or Yale graduate degree he would have been teaching in a college.

Even if he had unaccredited Ph.D ( his is accredited).

It also depends on your career were you work.
you may be working at NASA then it is almost guaranty that you can teach in college with State degree.

Thats my opinion and observation.

One more point - is the program professionaly accredited.

for example Ph.D from APA accredited program will have better chance than RA only accredited program.

The picture is wide and other factors may substitute and make person "atractive".

Learner

 

Ho, boy....

Why mix UC Berkeley, MIT, Yale - and unaccredited - in the same thought or near-sentence?!

Why is it so difficult for some to overcome the urge to sneek in an under-handed (nay, sleight-of-hand) boost and plug, for mills/unaccredited (and un-wonderful) entities, no matter how unecessary the praise or plug, given the context of the discussion?

And the one does it with a straight face!

On DI, of all places!

Oy.



Exactly who are you trying to convince (from here, DI) to go for these unaccredited, mostly bogus and useless, diplomas?

Newbies? Dyed-in-the-wool DL veterans and standards bearers? The hapless ignoramus? The "easy" degree-seeker?

For what purpose?

To guarantee a continual flow of revenue into some pockets, purses, or bank accounts elsewhere? To prop up an entity in which you or a relation or associate has an interest?

The gig is up! Give it up, please!

Newbies:

First of all, welcome!

Listen. This is DI. One does not normally come in here looking for "acceptable" diploma mills, or seeking to hear what a "reasonable" mill shill or unaccredited, un-wonderful "school" proprietor (of the likes of IUFS, KW"U", SR"U", etc) has to say.

There are other fora more appropriately geared to support for the mills and shills.

But this is DI. You came here. You did not go there.

So clearly, in my mind, you want to do the right thing. You want standards. You do not want "no standards". Mills, mushroom "schools" and most unaccrediteds are just that - "no standards," or more precisley, no objectively set, independently evaluated and apprised, widely accepted and respected, academic and operational standards.

So ......... You know what to do.

When you read or hear someone here on DI (or elsewhere) making an albeit, concealed, plug for a mill/unaccredited/un-wonderful entity or DL "school", go in the exact opposite direction.

You will not live to regret it!

Do not be led astray by those who are apt to speak out of both sides of their mouths.

When in doubt, check out the CHEA or USDoE-recognized accredited instutions and legitimate accrediting organizations, here.

You will not go wrong, ever, if you do.

Thanks.

 

By "ASU" I assume you mean "Arizona State University." If so, I would suspect the doctoral-qualified candidate would have the upper hand, but there are so many variables that it would be hard to generalize.

If you mean another unaccredited school that you're trying to push, then the question is absurd.

 

The discussion is that this instructors already have unaccredited credential on their resumes and they teach.

That’s what I was trying to state and not I'm not pushing anything.

I think school name recognition - not just name but their academic quality and history, road scalars they produced and even Presidents
and other known public persons have and had always been important ingredient of the equation.
In real life the above mentioned have major advantage for placement.

Didn't you pushed at one time in history some unaccredited schools?

This is very unfair what you just did.

The faulty opinion that an unaccredited degree is without utility was debunked by the only study done on the question by the your study.

I always promote accredited recognized degrees.

If I post somthing about unaccredited school is to have conversation and exchange among learned professionals in the field.

Well thats what I hope.


Learner

 

"road scalars" probably = Rhodes Scholars.

Marylars apparently intends to be a road scalar this summer.

 

Well, if the employer wanted somebody with a Ph.D., then obviously they would favor the applicant that has one. (I'm not sure what ASU you are eferring to, but if you mean Arizona State, that's a major nationally known research university that does lots of excellent work in many fields.)

In the case of a masters degree being hired for a permanent position, I'd guess that happens more in applied or vocational subjects. So I suspect that a Texas A&M graduate might have the edge, because A&M is particularly strong in agriculture and engineering (hence the "A&M" in its name).

But isn't that a contradiction? If he studied with very well known professors, then how is his university "unknown"?

My impression is that reputation on the doctoral level is more a function of particular departments or even individual doctoral supervisors than it is a matter of overall institutional prestige. (Particularly when the USNews version of that concerns undergraduate programs.)

So it looks to me like your friend is trying to find work in a field where there are few openings and lots of competition. Even the fact of having worked with well known figures in his doctoral program isn't enough to get him a position.

That's certainly consistent with what I've seen as well, in humanities subjects especially. But all it does is highlight the original question: How is it that degree mill graduates appear on faculty rosters?

I don't know what a "state degree" is. And I suspect that a great deal would depend on what the candidate actually did for NASA.

But sure. That's probably the kind of situation where people with masters' degrees often find teaching jobs. An MSME with years of responsible and perhaps cutting-edge industry experience, or something like that.

That suggests that maybe we should go back and look at what these professors with degree-mill degrees are teaching. Is it always an applied subject where the individual has good masters level qualifications and where doctoral degrees may just be icing on the cake? Or do we find degree-mill graduates teaching academic subjects where the phony graduate degree is the primary qualification for their post?

 

I think that Lerner was just talking about faculty hiring in general.

Did he do that?

I don't understand what that has to do with what Lerner wrote.

Look Jake, non-accredited schools are often interesting and occasionally they are even valuable. And even the grossest degree-mills among them are a very prominent part of the DL scene. They can't just be ignored. So they are obviously a legitimate thing to discuss here on Degreeinfo.

That being so, I'm not entirely comfortable with people taking it on themselves to dictate what others can and can't say about them. I prefer a context of free inquiry where claims that we might find false or misleading are met with good information and with well-reasoned persuasive responses. And I have a very low tolerance for flaming.

 

OK. But how many non-RA schools have strong academic reputations and illustrious histories?

Actually there are a handful of them. The poster-child for that right now is Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories in Long Island. They are only NY regents approved at the moment, but they also have a 100 year history, have hosted a who's-who of molecular biology (their long-time president was James Watson of 'Watson and Crick' DNA fame) and they've generated some four Nobel prizes.

So yeah, I expect that somebody with a CSHL Ph.D. could find a teaching position lots of places, despite not having an RA degree.

But that's not really what's happening here. The problem is that absolutely none of the DL doctoral programs whose graduates periodically appear on faculty rosters resembles CSHL, even remotely. So it clearly isn't institutional or programmatic prestige doing the lifting.

 

Originally posted by Lerner
How about name recognition?

Who would get associate professor posution?

A. Graduate with Masters degree from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, MIT etc.

B. Graduate with Masters degree from Texas A&M and Ph.D from ASU.

If you are talking about hiring a new faculty member at the associate professor level (most new faculty are hired at the assistant, not assoicate level), then it is more likely that candidate "B", with the Arizona State Ph.D. would get the job. Of course, that assumes that both have similar teaching experience, publications, conference presentations, awards, successful grant applications, etc.

Universities in my opinion are looking for graduates from well known prestige world class universities. In many cases this atracted students.

Some universities are concerned about this. Ivy League schools tend to favor Ivy League grads.

My friend David with BA, MA from Cal State LB and Ph.D from some unknown university in the east and a student of very good and known professors that published many books and him to he coautord books etc.

But never got a teaching job in state ot privet university.

The number of books and journal articles published by his professors is largely irrelevant. How many publications does your friend have himself? That carries far more weight when he is competing against other Ph.D.s for a faculty position.

I'm sure if he had UC Berkeley, MIT or Yale graduate degree he would have been teaching in a college.

Not necessarily. Perhaps, if he had a good vita with lots of scholarly and professional activity, he would be competitive.

Even if he had unaccredited Ph.D ( his is accredited).

Not likely. Having a masters at Berkeley, Harvard or MIT does not overcome the giant disadvantage of having an unaccredited degree, unless, of course, the postion for which you are being considered does not require a Ph.D.

It also depends on your career were you work. you may be working at NASA then it is almost guaranty that you can teach in college with State degree.

Not true. If you were a supervising engineer at NASA, then you may be highly competitive for an engineering faculty postion. If, however, if you were a lower-level employee at NASA, you would not necessarily have any advantage at all.

Thats my opinion and observation.

Most all posts at Degreeinfo are opinions and observations. Mine are made based on 18 years of experience working in higher education as a faculty and administrator and having been on many hiring boards.

One more point - is the program professionaly accredited. for example Ph.D from APA accredited program will have better chance than RA only accredited program.

In the discipline of psychology, you are absolutely correct.

The picture is wide and other factors may substitute and make person "atractive".

Very true as well.

One of the most consistent errors that I see repeated on Degreeinfo is this idea that the only thing that one needs to secure a full-time tenure-track faculty position at a university is to obtain a terminal degree from a good school. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

Even more so for graduates of DL schools. Those doctoral programs are not designed to track into traditional assistant professorships.

Another fallacy seen is criticism of these programs by using that as a measure. It's stupid. None of my peers at Union (and I had a lot of them over the years) were seeking such positions upon graduation. None. A few were already teaching at universities and were using the Union Ph.D. to advance their careers, but I just cannot imagine the typical Union Ph.D. being even the least bit interested in an assistant professorship. And Union (like Fielding) is a lot more "academic" than NCU, Touro and the like. (Union was created by a consortium of colleges and universities, the UECU).

Graduates of these programs typically look to advance in their established careers. Counselors become psychologists, school teachers become principals, and trainers become seriously billable to their clients. Why would any of us want to be assistant professors? Yeesh!

 

Another generalization.

1. At times it is the only way in to Professorship at the desired institution.

2. In my field many not only teach but volunteer - did you know that ABET evaluators volunteers who are working in their respected fields full time?
This is why I did this only for one year, it wasn't about money.
There is very interesting activity within IEEE and NSPE of mentorship to yang Engineers and heading, participating in Technical Comities.

I think if I wanted to teach at NYU or Columbia the only way would be to take a part time position at Associate level.

In 2002 - 2003 I was hired by UoP to instruct on line, Math, Calculus etc. I was hired by ITT and Devry to teach iT as well.

The pay is miserable but satisfaction is huge.
To all others who say I promote SRU, IUFS etc, they are liars plain and simple.

Many here worked, partnered, co-founded at one point unaccredited universities.

Dr. Bear, Rich Douglass etc.

Times changed better and more legitimate alternatives available.

They recognized this and moved on.

Learner

 

Mr Jack did you read what is this tread about and who is doing the plug in?

Another silly acusation by you.

CCU had it's graduates teaching at other colleges way before they got the DETC accreditation don't tell me you didn't know this.
SHAME on YOU and your baseless acusations.
Did I statred this tread - no
Any way here is the name of the tread in case you missed it.
How are 'Less-than-Wonderful' Graduates Hired at RA Universities?
By Bill D
Did I see Jack complaining about Bill's plug in of 'Less-than-Wonderful' ? Is this sending a message that a person can hold ' Less than Wonderful' credential and still be accepted to RA school to teach?

Hipocritical on your account isn't it?

Learner

 

He's "Dr." Bear but I'm just "Rich"? Oh, and your butchering of the language doesn't have to extend to people's names. One "s" at the end, please.

Seriously, this mischarictarizes my experience tremendously. I've been involved with two unaccredited schools. At Greenwich, I did an internship when John first acquired its predecessor. I built the MBA program, edited manuals, helped develop policies, and mentored one student as a pilot. This internship was for my Union program.

At Virginia International University, I taught classes during their initial days, trying to help them get accredited. But as with Greenwich, I moved on. In both cases, I was interested in participating in a start-up. I'd do it again for a school that showed promise, but my current interests are elsewhere.

It is true that I was more sympathetic back in the days when the regionals were hostile towards nontraditional higher education. But the days of good, alternative schools being denied accreditation are over. If that's what you mean by moving on, I'd agree with that.

 

No disrespect

I should have stated Doctors Bear and Rich D.

I agree that today the only reason school may stay unaccredited is because they cant compete – financial and the only way they can stay in business and remain etical and with integrity is to look for alternatives such as CA state approval that provide some level of legitimacy.

CCU is raising its tuition, why should i go to CCU and not Cal State DH?
Today its because I can save couple of thousands tomorrow I don't know.

DETC schools as I understand are not eligible for student loans
such a SM.

When I talk about unaccredited schools in this tread I don't talk about criminal mills but more recognized unaccredited schools such as SCUPS or CCU a year ego.

Braer State in my opinion is not an example of ethical unaccredited school.

Any way I went off topic here.

No disrespect Dr, after a decade of visiting this sites I know a little about you.

I not always agree with your observations but that’s the nature of the debates.

Learner

 

It took me 3 years just to pass the TOIFEL and I still think it was a miracle.
I studied German, Franche and (Hebrew - later) in school.
English is chalanging to me.
So the butchering is unintentional and this is why I don't teach English
I stay with Math, Engineering, IT.
I did well at Florida Institute of Technology but this was a graduate certificate in IT.
I don't think at this time could even think about Ph.D
Only if I go back to Russia, or if they start offer DL doctoral programs in Russian.
And I will not settle for less then RA or equivalent.

I see my self as a part time profesiional instructor but not an educator


Learner

 

...nor di verter zenen naye...

Du zolst baym toifel geyn on seyn bokher tsu verdn. Un Jake is nit Jack. Oy.

 

It is true that I was more sympathetic back in the days when the regionals were hostile towards nontraditional higher education. But the days of good, alternative schools being denied accreditation are over. If that's what you mean by moving on, I'd agree with that.

But the days of good, alternative schools being denied accreditation are over.

I agree.

I think that today the only reason school may stay unaccredited is because they cant compete – financialy and the only way they can stay in business and remain etical and with integrity is to look for alternatives such as CA state approval that provide some level of legitimacy. Some religeus schools don't want to loose their freedom by becoming accredited and having to follow standards that may limit their educational goals or be in contradiction to their teachings.

I think CCU now has to raise their tuition and they will have to compete harder with other schools that may be more atractive.

The example is MBA from California State University Dominges Hills - RA.

Is CCU raising its tuition to cover ( Pass on) accreditation costs and what takes to keep the standard or to attract better faculty?

Now someone with post graduate fraduant, milled degree even if the undergrad and grad RA has no room in education system.

Learner

 

Re: ...nor di verter zenen naye...

Yeah....whatever he said...umm, I think...umm, I guess.
Jack
(all I know is that my name popped up in there and so I had to say something. Of course, I trust Uncle implicitly)

 

Re: Re: ...nor di verter zenen naye...

He stated that Jake is not Jack.

I replied to Jake and called him Jack by mistake.

The first part about TOIFEL.

In Romanian Maymuts

They like to repeat.