has anyone heard of Vision International University, ramona,ca.? is it good school?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by art, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. art

    art New Member

    i was wondering if good school or fraud.
  2. PCap

    PCap New Member

    Is it a school of Optometry?:eek: :rolleyes: :cool:
  3. PCap

    PCap New Member

    Sorry, College of Optometry. I couldn't see so well.:eek:
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Vision is CA-approved, though since all of its approved programs are religious in nature, it's probably operating under a religious exemption. Their approval date was 5-13-02, so it's new. I notice that they claim approvals in South Dakota and Florida as well.

    It claims some accreditations I never heard of, but admits that they aren't recognized.


    I see that they offer a masters degree in "creation science", but like most of these programs, it turns out to be lots of apologetics and virtually no science. They seem to have some kind of relationship with the ICR. This degree isn't listed among the approved degree programs on the BPPVE's page, but since it's entitled a 'Masters in Creationism and Apologetics', not an MA or MS, it probably falls under the exemption.


    Is it a good school? Probably not. Is it a fraud? Probably not. But personally, I'd place it closer to the latter. Sincere but not credible, perhaps.

    If your goal is to earn a degree that's recognized outside a rather small circle of fundamentalist churches, look elsewhere. But if you are looking to take some DL Bible classes simply for your own edification, it might work. Of course, so would Moody in Chicago, and the latter is accredited. That's important if your plans change and you ever want to use the credits in the future.
  5. levicoff

    levicoff Guest


    Degree mill. Always was. Always will be.
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Vision?

    I guess that means that Steve wouldn't call them a "good school". LOL

    Hey Steve, you know about this stuff. What's up with these guys? On their history page they make it sound like they have been in California for some time, but their BPPVE listing is new:


    Were they operating under a different name? I made a rough listing of all the Ca-approved degree granting schools several months ago for my own use, and there's nothing listed for Ramona Ca.

    I also notice that their masters in creationism and apologetics is indeed an M.S. (how did I miss that?). As I understand it, exempt schools in California can only offer degrees with religious degree titles, such as Master of Theology (Th.M.) or Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.), but not secular degrees like Master of Science (M.S.). I'm gonna have to go read the California code section governing this stuff.

    One reason I'm interested is because I'm wondering if this is an attempt to produce "science teachers" complete with M.S. degrees for Christian secondary schools to impress their state education authorities with.

    And what's up with this incredible claim to have 4,000 campuses in more than 100 countries? Do they really have that many students, and are they counting each individual student as a campus?

    I get the impression that there is more to this than meets the eye. I need better vision, I guess.
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Vision?

    Steve makes a guest appearance after many miles on the road. Tell us, Steve, have you surfed out any degree mills during your travels? ;)
  8. art

    art New Member

    i checked out their web site and....

    the schools that they claim are all over the world are schools that went under their wings and because of that they suppose to enjoy the approval status. one school for example is Vision International University of Florida (formely South Florida Theological Seminary) http://www.slm.org/sfts/index.html.

    i'm just looking for a state approved school to attend that is if this ones legitmate. reason - i plan to attend a M.A., program in marriage therapy at the American Behavioral Studies Institute in Santa Ana, Ca. which will accept any region., accredited or "state approved" school bachelors degree for admission.
  9. CLSeibel

    CLSeibel Member

    I agree that, while perhaps not an outright fraud, Vision by no means bears the marks of what I'd dub a "good" institution.

    I've been fascinated for some time by the fact that the University of Zululand Faculty of Theology lists two "accredited" lecturers at affiliated institutions who possess honorary doctorates from Vision. http://www.uzulu.ac.za/the/acclecturers.htm

    It makes me wonder: are the folks at Zululand aware of Vision's status?

    Cory Seibel
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Given that an honorary doctorate holds no academic weight, the UZ lecturers must be "accredited" based on other credentials.
  11. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    Re: Re: Vision?

    Here's what I wrote abou them in the last edition of Name It & Frame It? (in 1994 - so the information is current as of then):

    940 Montecito Way
    Ramona, California 92065
    (619) 789-4700

    Vision Christian College, which has also called itself Vision Christian University, is the successor institution to the Logos Bible College and Graduate School, another degree mill that operated in the Southern California area. Vision purports to offer degrees through the doctorate level. While they indicate no accreditation in their most recent catalog, they used to claim accreditation from the unrecognized Southeast Accrediting Association of Christian Schools, Colleges and Seminaries, as well as applicant status with the unrecognized Accrediting Commission International. They are registered to grant degrees under Hawaii law, which is less restrictive than California law for unaccredited schools. Interestingly enough, Vision also holds associate status with the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), providing yet another example of TRACS recognizing a school that isn't authorized to grant degrees in its home state (the other is the University of Biblical Studies, also listed in this chapter). Many of the faculty hold their own degrees from Vision or its predecessor, Logos Graduate School, and their advisory board includes persons who direct other known diploma mills. Vision's degree requirements are far below the normal requirements of legitimately accredited institutions. Their latest catalog is a great improvement over their previous mailings and consists of 106 perfect-bound and offset-printed pages - impressive for a degree mill. However, the red flags are still there, including claims of affiliation with both the American Association of Family Counselors and the American Society of Christian Therapists, both of which are credential mills listed in Chapter 13. A follow-up letter also offers "a special additional 10% tuition reduction for students who enroll within the next 30 days," a sure sign of a degree mill. In short, they're starting to do an impressive production, but they're still a rip-off whose credentials will not be recognized by any legitimately accredited institution. Advertises or has advertised in Charisma, Christianity Today, and Ministries Today.

    N.B. It appears that Vision has gotten into the franchising business, so to speak. (No, they don't call it that, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . . well, you get the picture.) An astute "Name It and Frame It" reader sent in some materials from "Vision Christian Bible College," operating from two "campuses" in Montpelier, Ohio, and Strongsville, Ohio, and offering degrees through the doctoral level via our friends at Vision Christian University in Ramona, California. This seems to be a trend - degree mills operating through "extension centers" or alleged field campuses in other states that regulate higher education more stringently (also see the listing for DayStar Theological Training Center in this chapter for another example of this tactic). Follow-up research reveals that the Strongsville address and phone number used by the school is also the headquarters of John Knight Ministries, run by "Dr. John L. Knight, Ph.D." (While Knight doesn't identify the source of his own credentials, or those of any other faculty member listed in the catalog used by both Ohio "campuses," keep in mind that the use of "Dr." and "Ph.D." in the same breath signifies an inflated ego, a degree mill credential, or both. Knight uses both titles on both his business card and the signature line on his letters.) The Montpelier address is registered to the Soul's Harbor Church. Notwithstanding that Vision Christian University itself holds Associate status in TRACS, and seems to be "pushing the edge of the envelope" through this new venture, the Ohio schools also claim that they are "further accredited by the American Association of Theological Institutions," an accreditation mill associated with Christian Bible College in Rocky Mount, North Carolina (listed in this chapter).

    Incidentally, Vision was ultimately granted neither accreditation nor candidate status with TRACS.
  12. art

    art New Member

  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Vision?

    If you'll forgive me for saying so, this was a really good read. (Realizing I'm in no position to judge Steve's work, but enjoying it anyway.)
  14. CLSeibel

    CLSeibel Member

    I'm certain that you are correct.

    Cory Seibel
  15. mdg1775

    mdg1775 New Member

    Re: Vision?

    Come on Steve...tell us what you really think!!
  16. art

    art New Member

    diploma mills...

    i thought was a school that gives out diplomas without any studies or course work ? i'm i right or wrong ? or whats the definition ??
  17. mdg1775

    mdg1775 New Member


    I am trying to look at vision but I can't see it anywhere,

    Forgive me!!


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