Harcourt Learning Direct discussion

Originally posted by PaulC:
I, for one, would still like to see the supporting evidence that the poor and uneducated are the target market for Harcourt.

Well, open your eyes, guy. I've seen full-page Harcourt ads in magazines that were *nothing* but get-rich-quick schemes. I've seen the tackiest little Harcourt mailer cards in decks with nearly identical cards from unaccredited schools and carpet cleaning ads. Look at the ad in the SF paper that John Bear wrote about.

And as for personal experience, I have seen the Harcourt marketing machine in action more times than I wish to count, starting with the "Get Your Diploma in the Mail" matchbooks when I was a kid to "We lie a lot" from a Harcourt Higher Education administrator discussing their inadequate programs and misleading marketing techniques.

And as I pointed out earlier, CCHS was sued in class-action format on behalf of swindled students. During the depositions for that suit, a Harcourt marketing director was heard saying to the effect, "I do not recall at this time" over and over and over...


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H. Piper
http://harcourtbites.tripod.com

 

Thank you, Paul, for finally informing us of the vested interest that leads to your incredibly long and weak arguments in defense of Harcourt.

 

Actually, Erma, that is something I've always had trouble understanding. I'm a math major, so I look at schools in terms of math courses. The community college I'm at, Sinclair in Dayton, Ohio, teaches 5 credit hour, two-hundred level calculus. There you'll learn l'Hopital's theorem. Stanford and Vanderbilt also teach a calculus course in which you'll learn L'Hopital's theorem. The proof is in the book if you're interested, and the courses take the same amount of time, so I doubt the other professors are spending more time on it. I haven't spoken to a similarly-placed student from Stanford or Vanderbilt, but I'm wondering what special insight they might have been given into l'Hopital's theorem.

Even if the great mathematician Andrew Wiles flew in and taught the bit on l'Hopital, I still don't understand the difference in quality.

Maybe it's something with the humanities/liberal arts departments.

Get regional accreditation, drop the term 'diploma' and give those courses a course number, fix the advertising, stiffen the course material and add a liberal arts program. If you have a liberal arts program, everyone thinks you're okay.

Mark A. Sykes

 

Originally posted by Chip:
While it would be difficult to prove the statement about assuming that students will drop and simply getting as much cash as possible before that happens, it is also a logical extension from the marketing strategy.

Actually, while you're right it might be hard to "prove" motive, CCHS is constantly at odds with accreditors over attrition rates, and I would imagine ICS/Harcourt has similarly poor numbers.

 

Uh, vested interest? I'm afraid the only difference between my arguments and yours are that I provide verifiable and citable reference, you do not. And since when does "Get your degree in the mail" constitute anything questionable. If you get your degree from any one of dozens of RA distance programs, that degree will be coming in the mail too.

You still don't cite anything credible, only commentary about matchbook advertising, etc. Please provide some rebuttal to what appears to be a real and verifiable survey of ICS/Harcourt that indicates their student body to be well educated and not uneducated as you continue to insist. I don’t expect you will, but the request will remain standing.

 

Originally posted by PaulC:
You still don't cite anything credible...

Well, Chip finds my arguments fairly credible, and I doubt he's the only one, Paul. (Not to mention a great deal of other information I've provided here, the AED, and at Harcourt Bites, which you have conveeeeeeeeeeniently ignored.) I'm not going to try to convince *you* of anything, because it is more than obvious you have serious blinders on to reason because of your wife's ICS history. (It's okay, guy, I understand.)

 

Actually, I hardly think that having relatives that have taken 2 Harcourt courses qualifies as having a vested interest.

Paul is probably our most vocal supporter of DETC-accredited schools and DETC itself. While I often disagree with his viewpoints, and I think that DETC has a *lot* of work to do, I believe his arguments and his request for more data are logical and sensible requests. And he is correct that without adequate citation, the arguments don't hold water.

I do not have an explanation for the apparent disparity between Harcourt's marketing focus and DETC's research on its accredited members, but I am interested in examining things further to try to get an answer.

I'm no fan of ICS/Harcourt, but I am also unwilling to completely condemn it unless and until I can convince myself that the DETC study is either flawed or excludes a signifcant portion of Harcourt's statistics.