Hamas = Barbarians?

Does Israel have a cause they firmly believe in? Certainly. Do the Palestinians have a cause they firmly believe in? Certainly.

Can either side win the struggle to their satisfaction? No. Will there ever be a mutually agreed peace? No, the differences are insurmountable.

The only victory possible is one in Old Testament style and I don't think that would be acceptable in the world today.

I think the vast majority of people feel for the plight of Jews in history. I think less are concerned with the plight of Palestinians.

The only solution, as both myself and Rich Douglas have said above, is to build a defendable barrier between the two, shut off all interaction and get on with life.

 

Hi Dennis

I hope the first statement is untrue, because IF it is true the consequances are great. I think everyone believes that any answer has to include answers for both the Israel and the Palestinians. If it can happen in India and Northern Ireland, it can happen anywhere.

I believe the second statement is unrealistic. Both Israel and the Palestinians depend on each other. Israel use the inexpensive labor, and the Palestinians need the income. While it might be possible for there to be a complete seperation, I think the chances of it working are slim.

Two unrelated questions. I have heard that Moslems learned aggression from the Christian Crusaders. Is there a historical basis for this statement? Were moslems as strongly aggressive before this? Second, what would a moderate Moslem see as a reasonable answer to the current situation. From the news reports it seems the PLO was offered 95% of what they were asking for during the Clinton peace intiative. They certainly are in a much worse position now.

 

Last first. Islam and Christianity were both to a large degree spread by conquest. I don't believe that Muslims needed any lessons in warfare.

I don't think that a moderate Muslim's opinion matters. They are about as accepted in their camp as an unaccredited degree holder is here.

A mutually agreed peace is beyond the horizon. In todays climate, world opinion is such that it will not allow the crushing defeat of Palestine necessary for compromise. Palestinians seem willing to pay the current price ad infinitum.

If the choices come down to cheap labour or peace, a wall will work.

 

The Israelis made peace with Egypt and Jordan. Lebanon isn't capable of attacking Israel militarily, and I don't think Syria is, either. Iraq attacked Israel with Scud missiles, to no avail. I don't think they'd dare take on Israel directly. Iran supports Palestinian terrorists, but wouldn't take on Israel directly. Peaceful relations, either through diplomacy or military strength, can happen.

It is safe to say that if the Palestinians would stop murdering Israelis (and, now, Americans), they would find peace available. Teaching your youth to wrap themselves with explosives only to blow themselves up--along with everyone else possible--isn't noble. It isn't war. It isn't even suicide. It is murder. The first time one of those mullahs or other leaders do it, I'd be shocked. But instead, they send their youths off to do a job they would never consider. Too bad. One less murderer would be fine with me.

 

There will be no peace until the two sides realize that violence will achieve nothing. For now each side firmly believes that violence is the way to go but the truth is that whatever each side is currently doing is not working. Terrorism has not worked for the Palestinians. Dismantling of "terror infrastructure", state terrorism, response to terror, or whatever you choose to call it has also not worked for the Israelis. Let us avoid using this forum as a platform for intensifying support for more violence. Nobody is defending himself. They are simply attacking each other. Violence will lead them to nowhere.

 

TECHNOLOGY: From firecrackers in ancient China to today's nuclear bombs

Then what will be the end result? What will happen when the Palestinians obtain nuclear weapons?

< shudder >

That is a very good point. It is shockingly horrible.

On today’s front page of my local newspaper, it said that 15 more Israeli civilians were killed when another Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up, along with the bus and everyone in it. Why are they brazenly targeting civilians, to include women and children?

Once the terrorist obtain nuclear technology, the entire planet is in for a horrific surprise. I don’t look forward to when the first terroristic nuclear bomb is set off on a civilian population center.

If the terrorist are willing to kill 3000+ American civilians at the Twin Towers, then I’m sure they would gladly set off a nuclear device in an American city. They would rejoice. And I believe the day is coming (in my lifetime).

Will it lead to a chain reaction of global events of biblical proportions?

 

Violence has always been part of these three great world religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). The wars fought by Israelites in the Old Testament, Inquisition, Jihad, Crusade are few examples. Man, no religion is spared. All of them have violent past. Malthusian law of population may have been jettisoned by modern economists but it is still applicable today.
Yes, PLO was offerred up to 95% of the West Bank (and Gaza) but they (and the Israelis too) were looking to get 100% of their demands. And of course the offer of 95% of the land was not the only issue that they discussed. Nobody has told us about other tough issues that were rejected outright by the negotiating parties. These tough issues should be resolved if they are looking to achieve "true peace". PR in the world media and violence will not resolve the problem. My conclusion is that the two sides lack the spirit of "give withouth asking for arms and legs".


Ike
(who is a Roman Catholic)

 

when warfare did not work

Israel fought two wars with Egypt. While Sadat is remembered as a man of peace, he also last a war with Israel, before getting through negociation what he wanted. Of course Sadat was martyed, in part for dealing with Israel.
I don't think Israel can afford to appear to bend under the current warfare.
All the best!

 

Originally posted by DaveHayden [/i]

Two unrelated questions. I have heard that Moslems learned aggression from the Christian Crusaders. Is there a historical basis for this statement? Were moslems as strongly aggressive before this? [/QUOTE]

Yes--Muhammed was a general. Islam spread during the Middle Ages because rival civilizations (India, Christendom), were going through bad patches then. Muhammed's military "glory" thus appears to be the model EVERY Arab (Muslim, too)? leader with any pretension of glory aspires to. And conversion by the sword was not praticed in Christendom until the Nuslim example was imitated.

Can you guess the Koranic penalty for leaving Islam? For converting to another belief? How about death--that's imperialistic relgion.

Islam requires martyrs--over and over and over again. The price of acepting a 95% solution for peace with Israel was subsequent liquidation (enforced by fundamentalists)--a price Arafat was unwilling to pay.

--Orson

 

A few years ago, I took a graduate course entitled "Crisis in the Middle East" and the instructor, who had worked for the State Department in Jordan for 10 years, stated it very clearly, "The Arabic language contains no word for compromise".

Wes

 

Moral equivalence--something the NYTimes practiced in Sunday's editorial while simultaneously rejecting moral equivalence!
Here's the stunning quote:

"The point here is not that the deaths of innocents caused by Israel's attack and Hamas's blatant act of terror are morally equivalent. The point is that they are both terribly wrong."

OpinionJournal.com's James Toranto comments:
"To assert that Israel's accidental killing of civilians and Hamas's deliberate killing of civilians are 'both terribly wrong,' of course, is precisely to adopt a stance of moral equivalence."

Shows what the NYTimes devotion to multicult will get you--everywhere!

--Orson

 

Do you use your left hand?

Perhaps someone can correct me. But isn't considered dirty and immoral to use the "left hand" and several traditional moslem teachings?
Would Hamas consider the USA to be immoral for passing an item at the table with the left hand?
All the best!

 

Is it murder ?

Wow, some of those Palestinians are homicidal. Look at the following:

I guess that there are too many homicidal acts to be reported by the media. Absolutely incredible.