Franciscan University of Steubenville unbiblical

Priests and pastors from mainline Protestant denominations are generally decent people in my experience. Humble, not self-obsessed sociopaths. It's the ones who think they have it all together, the entrepreneurs, the televangelists, the zealots, the smug neocalvinist go-getters, who tend to be ungodly creeps. Funny thing is my theology lines up more with the ones I think are creeps--I'm a pretty darned conservative Christian, at least in terms of theology (not conservative, right wing politics), but I tend to appreciate the company more of those with whom I have theologically differences.

 

I grew up in a home that was entirely irreligious. No prayers, no church attendance, no Bible, no religious discussions. Absolutely nothing. When I became a follower of Jesus at the age of 18, that was the ultimate rebellion.

 

This writer grew up in a home where the name of Jesus was never mentioned and the family eventually quit going to church at a very young age.

There are many people in society who became atheists, but then had a personal experience and were shown that there is an eternal hell with an absence of God. Trying to convert atheists is extremely difficult because they believe that their foundation (of atheism) is built on empirical logic i.e. if something cannot be measured and tested in a man-made lab, then it doesn't exist. However, the Lord is merciful with everyone. The pit is a horrible place (Psalm 16:10). A YouTube called "23 minutes in hell" is one of the best documented anecdotal encounters with hell.

 

The problem I have with most atheists, but not all, is that many think far more highly of their own intellectual abilities than they ought, and in general think far too highly of human logic. Full boat atheism is absurd on its face because for someone to be able to conclusively state "There is no God", they must by defintion have god-like knowledge and powers of reasoning. I don't claim to know much at all about the universe or even myself; I'm just a small, severely challenged thing. But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of telling people about what I've experienced, and I have experienced a relationship with something a lot bigger than me. I can't speak to anything more than my personal experience, sheesh, I can't even comprehend the size of the tiny speck of a planet on which I walk.

To be a true atheist, however, as opposed to an agnostic, one must think that they, a tiny, insignificant thing on a perfectly average planet in a small solar system in an unremarkable galaxy in a universe more vast than anyone can possibly fathom (and who knows how many other universes or dimensions there could be besides?) has the ability to conclusively state that what they know is pretty much all there is to know and that their knowledge is sufficient to tell others what they've experienced. It's laughable, silly, ridiculous.

But as silly and peurile as I think atheism is, I have a lot more contempt for fake Christians and abusers who populate many churches. Would rather throw back a beer with the average atheist than the average televangelist or mega church pastor.

 

The feeling is mutual.

 

Yes, friend, we stick together on a lot of things! : )

 

I'm not an atheist, but their line of thinking is logical to me. For example, someone could say that there's this secret pride of glow in the dark lions. The argument that religious people are presenting to atheists is, "How can you know for sure that there are no glow in the dark lions?" What they're basically saying is that anyone can make up anything, and it should at least be accepted that it might exist.

 

There are many people who have seen beyond our current mortal life, either heaven or hell. However, many people have to wait until death to actually see it. Thus, it ends up being taken on faith, just as we have to accept the resurrection by faith -- until we get to heaven to see Jesus. But for many who reject him, they have to wait until they're in hell until they will believe. If a person is going to gamble, then it's better to gamble that eternity and judgement are real.

 

In the first batch of the original 12 apostles, one was a liar, a thief and a devil (Judas Iscariot), which mathematically equates to 8% of the apostles:

1 / 12 = 8.33%

Can we expect the 8% percentile of the original apostles to be any different today? Maybe a little better or a little worse?

Judas Iscariot was a wolf. Wolves instinctively see the sheep as an opportunity for predatory feeding. Today, some televangelists and mega church pastors (not all) are wolves. They see the sheep as an opportunity for predatory feeding. The judgement of the wolves will be the most severe because they are abusing Christ himself (when they fraudulently abuse his sheep).

 

I'm not saying someone must believe in a higher being or be considered an idiot, but as far as I understand the term, atheism is the belief that there just is no god, nothing out there anywhere, in this dimension or any other. That's the contention I have with them, because no one can possibly know that something is not there. The best anyone can ever say is "I haven't seen any evidence that I'd perceive of a higher being, so I'm doubtful based on experience." But my understanding is that's agnosticism.

This a completely different issue from whether some people make up nonsense that's absurd on its face and worship it. Of course people do, but that's no reason for anyone to think they have the standing, as a puny little ignorant thing that barely even comprehends its own existence, to claim there is nothing out there. That's a full on non sequitur, and it's one that astonishes me when people fall for it while simultaneously claiming to have higher reasoning powers. I laugh.

 

My experience has been closer to 28% than 8%, with it probably approaching 48% for those claiming to be church leaders (see recent surveys on NPD incidence among the pastorate out of Canada), but your results may vary.

 

When the Church is openly persecuted, there are fewer wolves who want to face arrest, prosecution and punishment for being a Christian leader -- because it is less profitable to do so. Conversely, in rich countries where there is no prosecution of the Church, there may be more wolves wolves who seek leadership positions in the Church, for the sole purpose of enhancing their own personal prosperity and prestige. However, the Lord Jesus knows every man's heart and no one will escape his judgement.

 

IMHO, that's a spot on analysis. It's why I cringe when I hear people compare church leadership in fat, rich countries such as the U.S. to church leadership in First Century Palestine when the Pauline Epistles and the writings of James, John, Peter, etc. were composed. To compare the New Testament directive that members of a fellowship ought to be persuadable when considering the directives of leaders of the day (as I am told, a fairly close rendering of the Koine Greek in Heb 13:17), those who were literally sacrificing family, careers, freedom and in some cases, lives, to "lead" the church fellowships back then, to the commands coming from the pulpits of many churches led by literally fat, rich, narcissists who demand that their fellowships "come under" their "authority" is ridiculous and an utter misapplication of anything in the New Testament. Again, it's why I left the formal church.

 

Conversely and despite all our sins and errors, the Roman Catholic Church remains as a visible institution and repository of information that dates back 2000 years. The records and the history are maintained. It's not an ethereal institution that is hidden, to include the exposed sins of saints and sinners alike.

There are two classes of people: the saved and the unsaved. The only difference between the sins and errors of the saved and the unsaved is that the sins of the saved are washed away by the blood of Christ, while the sins of the other are retained.

The mystical body of Christ is a family that is comprised of all nations, kindreds, tribes and tongues -- and they are one, even as Christ and the Father are one: his body is one. It's interesting that when Saul was persecuting Christians, the Lord Jesus accused him of persecuting him (Acts 9:4-5). That is because the body of Christ is one. It is a mystical body.

 

Atheists lack a belief in a higher power; they don't believe that there is no higher power. Agnostics believe that there could or could not be a higher power, but no one can know for sure.

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

 

It is not the wolf I am worried about, it’s the wolf in sheep’s clothing that scares me. Similarly, conservatives and far right I do not mind. They are loud and vocal. It is the Liberal, who makes a show about loving me, that have me worried. Concerning the apostles, at least one was a liar, one was a denier, one was traitor, and 3 of them were either bad eye witnesses or fibbers.

 

Fair enough. We are apparently talking about two types of atheists. I have run into people who said in an unqualified manner "There is no god". You're right, that's different from saying "I don't believe in god". The second statement at least isn't logically absurd, the first is the sign to me of either a second-rate mind or possibly someone who's very angry with their upbringing or experiences with religious faith and lashing out at god. I can understand that perspective, having dealt first hand with some of those same experiences.

 

And all of them except for one were ultimately cowards who abandoned Jesus when He was dragged away to be killed. Interesting that all but one of those who stuck with Him to the end were women, considered low value chattel at that time and place. I think the eye witness accounts were pretty darned good as eye witness accounts go. Perhaps if you'd studied, researched and taught white collar crime as I have you'd have a very different perspective. They are remarkably good accounts as such things go, as clean and cohesive an account as I've seen of anything.

 

Today, people face the same innate fears that the cowardly apostles faced. Human nature has not changed. We are still battling the exact same spiritual forces of darkness that the apostles faced 2000 years ago. However, the difference today is that people are now filled with the Holy Spirit, whereas back then (before Pentecost), they were spiritually decimated and alone (and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), after Jesus was taken away from them to be executed. Fear reigned in their hearts and and dominated their minds. If we were in their exact circumstances -- and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- we would be no different. We too would be equally cowardly.

 

Even with the Holy Spirit we are still often cowards.