Founding Fathers Quote of the Day

<<No. I didn't say that all/most/many Christians do this. I just said it is funny when it happens. How is that generalizing?>>

I apologize. I read your statement in a way it wasn't intended to be read.

<<No, our government should not be without religious overtones, undertones, or references. Indeed, history does not support this.>>

Agreed. But the "liberal left", including the ACLU, disagrees.

<<What's funny is that you automatically assume that since religious aspects are acceptable, they MUST be Judeo-Christian.
How about if we built a new Supreme Court building that was inscribed with the pillars of Islam. Now that would be a fire storm.>>

Funny you should mention that because my brother and I recently discussed the exact same thing. Personally, I wouldn't take issue with it, even as a Christian, because we are supposed to be a society free to express religion, period. That being said, this country was founded on the Judeo-Christian moral system.

Pug

 

I have yet to meet a Christian who believes that Mahatma Ghandi went to Heaven. He was evil -- because he didn't accept the divinty of Christ -- and he is receiving the punishment he deserves. The exact same punishment that Hitler is receiving.

Or is there some Bible verse that says something different?

Red Herring. All of the people I mentioned had certainly heard the gospel.

 

<<I have yet to meet a Christian who believes that Mahatma Ghandi went to Heaven. He was evil -- because he didn't accept the divinty of Christ -- and he is receiving the punishment he deserves. The exact same punishment that Hitler is receiving.

Or is there some Bible verse that says something different?>>

Nope, you're correct. Or almost correct anyway. Yes, Ghandi was evil, as was Hitler, as are you, as am I, as is Kansasbaptist, as is everyone. Accepting Christ doesn't mean you're not evil, it means you can be forgiven.

<< Red Herring. All of the people I mentioned had certainly heard the gospel.>>

Okay, but there are still going to be differences of opinions within Christianity. Roman Catholics, for example, teach something a but differant.

Pug

 

PUL-EEZE people, Judaism is NOT an exclusivist religion!

Everybody who isn't a Jew is not bound by Jewish Law!

 

Your point?

 

I don't want to speak for nosborne, but can possibly offer an explanation for the above that might help in understanding. This is based on comparative study of different faiths and past discussions with offline persons of each faith.

Jews consider themselves bound by the laws of their faith, Jewish law. But they don't consider Gentiles (non-Jews) to be bound by their faith's laws. This can be contrasted with Christians (not all, but some Christian sects) that consider everyone bound by Christian law whether or not that individual is in fact a Christian or from a different sect of Christianity. It can also be contrasted with Muslims, who generally believe everyone is bound by their faith's tenets whether or not the individual is a Muslim.

For example, it is possible to hear a Christian from some sects of Christianity make the statement:
"Anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as divine is going to Hell, regardless of any of their good works while on earth."

It is also possible to hear a Muslim make the statement:
"Anyone who does not accept Mohammed as the last and true Prophet of God is going to Hell, regardless of any of their good works while on earth."

However, you will never hear a Jew say:
"Anyone who does not follow the Jewish dietary laws as set forth by God is going to Hell, regardless of their good works while on earth."

Because while Christians (some sects) and most Muslims consider everyone to be bound by the laws of their faith (or at least think everyone should be), Jews don't make any such insistences. They consider only themselves and other members of their own faith to be bound by Jewish law. To insist that everyone be bound by Jewish law would be considered, by Jews, to be exclusivist.

Kit

 

SO we're all going to hell unless we're Christians then... LOL

Puhleeze. Clearly there are those on earth who are evil, and those on earth who are not. There are those who are "Christians" who are among the most evil people who ever lived, and there are those who reject Christianity who are among the gentlest and most beautiful people who ever lived. And everything in between. To think that God has this prescription "accept me or ye shall BURN forever in torture" is ridiculous. If this is the type of God you all worship, then we are in even deeper trouble than I thought we were back when I was posting all that stuff about faith-based religions being obsolete in a day of nuclear weapons.

So.... if those who reject Christianity are going to be tortured for all eternity, regardless of how "good" they are and how "kind" they are to others, while selfish and bloated "Christians" are going to heaven so long as they maintain a relatively decent moral front and say they believe in Christ, what is stopping us right now from just killing those heathens wholesale? In THIS world, not the next? Let's give God some help, shall we?

There's a part of me that thinks that you fundamentalists do not find this as ludicrous as it so obviously is.

Scary, scary, scary....

God bless you all....
Carl

 

Great analysis! Nosborne, can I become Jewish??? - Carl

 

God did a pretty job defining what is evil. It is whatever he is NOT. The absence of God is evil, independent of works. Degree of sin is not important to salvation.

In each dispensation, man is tested, man fails. It is by God's grace, bestowed on the one who has failed, not according to his works, but according to the mercy of a loving God.

I know you have heard this, but I'll repeat it. Without Christ, one sin seperates us from God and seperation from God constitutes evil. Christians certainly have done some terrible, "evil" things in the name of God, but hopefully that does not define Christianity, no more that Bin Laden defines Islam.

Are there moral non-Christians? sure, lots of them. But, the Bible does not teach salvation through morality, it is through Christ.

 

"But, the Bible does not teach salvation through morality, it is through Christ."

That is your interpretation of what the Bible "teaches." Not everyone believes the same thing or interprets it the same way as you.

 

Let me just add that just because someone claims to be a Christian, doesn't mean they are. Just because someone claims to accept Christ as his/her personal saviour, doesn't mean they actually do. While we are in no way judged by works, good works are a natural extension of true faith. The Bible speaks to this issue over and over again. If you can look at someone that declares himself a Christian but does not demonstrate good works/fruits, there may be reason to question his faith. That being said, a common mistake that non-Christians make is to look at professed Christians and expect near perfect behavior from them. Once they spot a mistake or a backslide they pounce and say, "Look, he's a hypocrite! He preaches xyz but just did it himself!" Christians don't claim to be perfect...just the opposite in fact. We recognize our own dreadful imperfection and our vital need for a saviour. We strive in our actions to be more Christ-like, but know that it is impossible in this world.

Pug

 

That is not my interpretation, it what Jesus said:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
How is that open to interpretation?
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what you believe Jesus meant when He said that.
Or better yet, point me to scripture where Jesus said it does not matter what you believe about me as long as you live a good life.

Pug,
Great comment! The only true evidence of a redeemed soul is the presence of the Holy Spirit, which we cannot see, so it must manifest itself in changed behavior, compassion and love. If your faith is not demonstrated in community and works, I am not sure it is a saving faith.
James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

 

What I believe is that Jesus meant that people MUST follow his teachings, not necessarily that they MUST accept that he is God.

Apparently, this is the exact opposite of the way that "Christians" intepret this.

It doesn't matter AT ALL whether you follow Christ's teaching. Do what you want. It makes no difference. The only thing that matters is accepting the divinty of Christ. And, apparently, I am an idiot for interpreting this in any other way.

 

Kit:

Good summary.

Carl:

Yes, you CAN become Jewish but it is a LONG road. Not just to the conversion ceremony (most gerim are required to study, attend services, and lead a Jewish life for more than a year) but to "acclimate" to the Jewish world. This is a gradual process and is never really complete, I don't think.

Also, since nothing requires Gentiles to convert, there is no guarantee that the Bet Din will allow a conversion.

Reform is more welcoming than other branches but no one proselytizes.

 

<<What I believe is that Jesus meant that people MUST follow his teachings, not necessarily that they MUST accept that he is God.>>


Out of curiousity, how do you then reconcile all of the other things He said? I know that many people only look at the gospels, ignoring the writings of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. But even if that was your position, there are many statements within the gospels themselves that would seem to present a problem to your interpretation.

Pug

 

The vast majority of Christians do. In fact, that is the very basis of Christianity.

It does not matter one bit how many evils you commit, as long as you accept Christ as your saviour.

Look at how many "Christians" were 100% in support of a bunch of men who used the name of Christ to rape children. I can't think of anything more dispicable, but it doesn't matter. Just reassign them to another parish and start over. You can do whatever you want, as long as you accept Christ.

These child rapers will go to Heaven, and Ghandi will go to Hell.

What a wonderful world.

 

How about a couple of more, just for debate's sake:

John 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life

Not so, I said this in a previous post. A faith that does not manifest itself in a changed life, compassion, and love is not a saving faith.

The starting point is accepting the divinity of Christ.

My faith teaches me to share what I "interpret" as the truth, as medicine for life. To not share, in my heart, is parallel to having a cure for a life-threatening desease and not telling anyone about it. I promise I never have nor ever will think your an idiot on any level.

 

That is simply a lie, grgrwll. They do it on their own initiative. Please, don´t exagerate. Some of your observations are truly interesting, but this attitude hurts your credibility in this agora, in my opinion.

Regards

 

How is this a lie?

I said:

"Look at how many "Christians" were 100% in support of a bunch of men who used the name of Christ to rape children."

Are you denying that this happened, or are you denying that there were some Christians who supported the perpetrators?