Found a New EdD w/ No Dissertation Requirement - Other Options

Another idea is to encourage more students to enter law school after three years (not four) of undergraduate study. This practice is already allowed under ABA rules, and some law schools do take advantage of it.

Combine a 3-year undergraduate program with a 2-year law program, and what do you get? The ABA Journal puts it like this:

If this goes through, you could get the JD five years after graduating from high school. That's not a doctorate, nor is it a glorified master's degree -- it's a glorified bachelor's degree. For example, the professional B.Arch. degree for architects is normally a 5-year program.

Of course, in the UK and some other common law countries, the first degree in law has always been an LL.B. -- i.e. a bachelor's.

 

Some suggest that lawyers, or law professors, would never let something like this go through because they're protectionist.

Something to consider: The proposals for shorter training would make education for law more like education for accounting. Is accounting doing relatively well? Are accounting professors doing relatively well? By everything I hear, yes they are.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of all this. Although my piece of paper reads "Doctor of Jurisprudence," it's not a doctorate in the traditional sense, nor have I ever though it to be so. Experience tells me that getting a JD was a much more rigorous undertaking than either of the master's programs I've taken (apologies to occupational therapists or others with 90 credit master's out there), so I take some exception to calling the JD something akin to a master's degree, or even a bachelor's.

 

I am not conflating the terms. The term "professional doctorate" is inherently less specific than "first professional doctorate/degree." Using an inclusive broader term is not conflating the terms. Just because some use it in a technical sense does not mean that everyone does. There is no universally-recognized definition.

An example: http://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/underreview/MW2DivChairs_PDPE%20Report_Review.pdf

On page three of the document:

 

I'm down with that. I'm also cool with the fact that JD's at universities are treated comparably to Ph.D. graduates. Law is an applied field and lawyers on top of that heap. The JD isn't a doctorate. But the lawyer who is teaching at a university is a professor just like the Ph.D., even if he/she is teaching in other areas than the law. I'm cool with that paradox. The term "doctor," after all, is both a scholarly and professional distinction.

 

It's your usage I object to. You were making a distinction regarding dissertations and using first professional degrees as the basis. Yes, you are conflating the two.

 

I'm sorry, but you really need to go back and read my posts again.

The only conclusions I made related to the dissertation were these:

1) A doctorate without a dissertation could NOT be a research doctorate.
2) There are professional doctoral degrees that do not require dissertations.
3) The EdD mentioned by the OP does require a dissertation but permits a variety of formats.


You jumped in to erroneously declare that first professional degrees that with doctoral nomenclature could not be considered professional doctorates. The evidence I provided contradicts your claim. You may argue that such degrees shouldn't be considered professional doctorates, but it is inaccurate to claim that they cannot be viewed in such a fashion.

The point I was making (and which you have failed to notice) is that the dissertation is not the sine qua non of a doctoral program.

I did not state that a professional doctorate never requires a dissertation, only that some professional doctorates do not (e.g. the first professional doctoral degrees I listed). I also never stated that first professional doctoral degrees were the only professional doctorates. I also never claimed that all first professional degrees were doctoral programs.

 

I know a couple of PsyD programs do not require a dissertation. At Alliant International University, the student has the option of doing a doctoral project instead of a dissertation. George Washington University requires a major area paper.

 

Thank you, but no. What I've said about your post is both accurate and reflects your post's contents. You might not agree, but I didn't get your post wrong.

Not true. Many research doctorates do not have a dissertation as their requirement. But they still require research. D-uh.

Yes, but they're still research degrees and, in some cases, permit alternatives to the traditional dissertation. Unfortunately, the examples you listed were not "professional doctorates." They were first professional degrees, an entirely different animal. You obviously don't--or won't--get that distinction because you keep conflating them.

I didn't say that. I said the professional doctorate and the first professional degree are two different things. You confused the two by using the term "professional doctorate" while listing a bunch of first professional degrees. They're different.

They're two different things. Really. No, really. Two different things. Read "Professional Doctorates: Integrating Academic and Professional Knowledge" or "Achieving your Professional Doctorate" for the distinctions around professional doctorates. Seriously. Then you might get it.

Yes it is. Almost all academic doctorates (Ph.D. and professional doctorates) require either the dissertation or some comparable contribution. First professional degrees like the ones you listed do not. Yes, they all confer the term "doctor," but they're a different animal. All academic doctorates require a dissertation (or equivalent). No first professional degrees do. See the distinction? Here's another: it is the dissertation that distinguishes the doctorate from all other higher education. Not even a master's thesis approaches it. Get it?

And I never claimed to be the King of Siam.

 

For anyone else:

There are two kinds of doctoral degrees. First, there are academic degrees. These culminate in an original research effort, normally the dissertation ("thesis" in other parts of the world). Dissertation approaches take two forms,"big book" and "little book." "Big book" degrees normally result in the Ph.D. and are awarded on the basis of a large thesis (~80 - 100K words) alone. Candidates may or may not take courses or other learning experiences, but that's at the discretion of their respective advisers. The "little book" approach (used almost exclusively in the U.S. and is emerging in other "big book" countries) involves a series of prescribed courses followed by a smaller dissertation (~35 - 50K words). (More on the other kind of doctorate in a moment.)

Now, these two approaches can be used in two different academic doctoral programs. First, there is the research doctorate. It is designed to advance the academic discipline by creating new knowledge--theory building, theory testing, etc. The result is the award of the Ph.D. (In the U.S., we often see other titles also awarded for completing an academic doctorate; more on that in a moment.). The Ph.D. can be a "big book" (U.K, Germany, Australia, and elsewhere) or a "little book" (U.S.) program. But either way, the distinction is that the degree candidate makes a significant and new academic contribution to his/her academic discipline.

In places like the UK, Australia, and South Africa, we've seen the rise of "professional doctorates." These programs tend to--but don't always--take a "little book" approach. They often don't require new theoretical knowledge (but not always) and result in degree titles alternative to the Ph.D. The DBA, EdD, DSoSci and many others result. (In the U.S., however, such titles are often the result of following the exact same path as the Ph.D.: little book with an original and significant contribution to the academic discipline.) Some of these professional doctorates still require original contributions to the academic discipline, others do not. But they all culminate in a thesis or dissertation.

The other kind of doctorate (finally!) is the one awarded at the end of a first professional degree program. These programs are designed for graduates to enter specific professions. Typically, the use of the term "doctor" in the profession is more related to that person's standing in the professional practice, rather than their academic degree. (This explains why British physicians are called "doctor" even though they earn the Bachelor of Medicine degree.) Veterinarians, optometrists, chiropractors, and even lawyers receive first professional degrees with the title "doctor." All but lawyers use the title in their professional practices. But these are not "professional doctorates" as described above. They involve advanced professional training and culminate in the title "doctor," but their students do not undertake dissertations (or the equivalent). They take courses, graduate, and almost always face licensing exams in order to practice.

A Ph.D. is a "doctor." A DVM is a "doctor." but they are not the same. Not at all.

In sum:

Two types of doctorates: academic and first professional degree.

Two types of academic doctorates: the Ph.D. and professional doctorates.

Two types of approaches to academic doctorates: Big Book and Little Book.

Two types of dissertations (or equivalent): those that require an original contribution to the academic discipline and those that do not.

Finally, holders of academic doctorates and first professional degrees with the doctoral title are "doctors," but they're not the same.

Now, give me that scalpel and get out of my way--I've got some operating to do !

Rich Douglas, Ph.D. (and a candidate for something else relevant to this post)

 

If I'm confused, I'm as confused as representatives of the Academic Senate of the University of California, who used the identical term--"Professional doctorate" to refer to some of the same degrees I mentioned--all of which were first professional degrees.

You can make your posts as patronizing as you wish, but the reality is that you are unwilling to consider the fact that the term "professional doctorate" does NOT have the universal definition that you are claiming it does.

You added the term "academic doctorate" to the discussion. I have never challenged the distinction between an academic or research doctorate and a professional degree. The distinction is clear and indisputable.

I have not been and am not currently claiming that a first professional degree that has "Doctor" in the nomenclature is equivalent to any other degree---not a EdD, not a PhD, not a DBA. I'm simply saying that it is a doctoral program, and I have shown evidence that the term "professional doctorate" has been applied to such programs by academics representing a prominent university system. This is incontrovertible fact. You may disagree with the propriety of the term, but the fact remains that the term does NOT have a universally-accepted definition to match your assertions.

I will even grant that I should append a caveat to my statement that a doctorate without a dissertation could not be a research doctorate---it could also include recognition of a contribution to scholarship equivalent to (or greater than) a dissertation.

I am merely claiming that a "Doctor of _____" first professional degree program is in fact a doctoral program (by definition, due to its nomenclature), even though it is not equivalent to a doctorate culminating in a dissertation or something similar. A program can be a doctoral program without requiring a dissertation, and we do recognize such programs as first professional degrees. They are also doctoral degrees. If they were not, they would not use doctoral nomenclature.

My continual assertion (which is opposed to your claims) is that the term "professional doctorate" is an broad term that can include both first professional degrees with doctoral nomenclature and more advanced degrees blending a focus on practice with a significant research component (a dissertation, project, study, etc.). Authorial intent and context determine whether or not an individual who refers to a "professional doctorate" is intending the term in a broader, inclusive sense or a narrower, exclusive sense that would exclude first professional degrees.

My claim has never been that "first professional degree" is equivalent to "professional doctorate." My contention is that, depending on intent and context, first professional degrees with doctoral nomenclature are a subset (NOT the entire set) of "professional doctorates."

 

Considering this thread has gone very OT, I suggest that "StefanM" has the last word.