Forum behavior?

Well, Mark, you've done yeoman service in sounding many another alert. We needn't all keep watch in the same direction.

 

James Crabb quotes Jimmy Clifton as saying, "IF Janko did in fact say this, and, IF he was referring to me, [...] If he said I used obscenities and made racial epithets then he is [unflattering characterization deleted]! I DON'T use obscenities. I don't even use slang. And I CERTAINLY don't use racial epithets. I have been a member of the NAACP for more than 20 years and my posts on DI and other forums regarding racial issues clearly shows my views." http://www.online-college.info/article1789.html

Perhaps Janko should marshal his evidence, with URLs.

 

I went back and deleted this post after thinking how out of character it is for me. Unfortunately, someone responded to it before I deleted it.

I, too, would like to see ANY posts where I have used obscenities or racial epithets.

 

I worked with an atheist several year's ago in mental heatlh. She and I became very good friends and still communicate with each other on a regular basis.

There were other Christians in our office besides me. My atheist friend was more "Christian" in speech and conduct than most of my Christian friends.

 

FOR MARK

Mark,

Will you do me a favor?

Should Uncle Janko provide validation I used obscenities and racial epithets, will you email his response to me so I can comment on what he presents?

He is on my Ignore List and I really don't feel like trying to find his response and having to read, if what Craig Hargis said is accurate, "cruel, etc., etc., etc." posts about or to me.

My control panel is not working properly so email me, please, at [email protected]

Thanks.

 

Dr Clifton's racist epithets

Hi Mark: You ask, you get.

This is from a thread on this website about Excelsior College and Nazi Germany.


QUOTE PASTED: Don't be so " marime," and stop acting like a gajo.


I'd post the thread reference if I knew how; a search using the word marime turns up the post promptly enough.

The word marime means male or female whore, and the word gajo is a racist term meaning (in American use) nigger. The words are from the Roma or Romany language. Dr Clifton figured he could use them w/o others catching on. Whether he is sufficiently ill-educated to suppose that Roma/Romany and Romanian (my own ancestral turf) are the same, I shouldn't like to speculate.

Along with the psychobabble, ever-changing resume of past and present studies, involvement with phony schools and fake religious organizations, and misleading language on other websites of his ostensible psychological credentials, Dr Clifton's post-repentance (whatever that means) behavior is shot through with denials of responsibility for what he says and does as well as what (supposedly) he did and then (supposedly) quit doing.

Even a cursory review of his multitudinous posts will show the frequent use of long-distance psychological "diagnosis", refusal to enter into reasonable debate, inability to respond when challenged for evidence by posters such as Bill Grover, and nasty comments usually later passed off by Dr Clifton as regrettable outbursts (which, then, he apparently cannot control) or as jokes (which no one else ever seems to "get").

Dr Clifton removed from the internet evidence of joke seminaries associated with his name as an official or promoter (Barton Stone, St Paul, and Concordia Theologica) as well as most evidence of his involvement with denominations defunct many many years ago--long before his internet resuscitation of them for some obscure personal purposes (Evangelical Protestant and Six-Principle Baptist; arguably both defunct before Dr Clifton's public ministry even began). Only after I cited this internet material on this forum did it disappear. He then denied its existence.

He also removed his vicious abusive diatribe about Baker Book House from his church's website and then denied it ever having been there.

Should he claim that he never had the fake school websites or the other now-removed internet material, then I guess it will have to be his word against mine, unless other posters saw the stuff also. There are many things that trouble my conscience, sinner that I am. Denying my own words is not one of them.

Dr Clifton loves to play fast and loose with statements about Earlham School of Religion, in order to blame the school for his dropping out, and yet to claim that his two years there are tantamount to an RA seminary degree.

On collegehints he brags about attending 5 RA schools and about graduating from 1. Congratulations all round, I'm sure.

Dr Clifton's involvement with the millish Bethany Seminary of Dothan Alabama has been discussed copiously on this website. Some have claimed that he deceived the administration there about his theological views. Did he? I don't know. I do know that after he began expounding his anti-Trinitarian theology on this website, his name suddenly disappeared from the Bethany of Dothan website. (B of D is a fundamentalist Baptist outfit which sternly requires Trinitarian belief on the part of its faculty and staff.)

Dr Clifton has a distressing habit of hiding his own words when he gets observed in his shenanigans, or playing wounded when criticized, and defaming those who criticize him. Such behavior makes a mockery of his own claims to have quit doing these kinds of things. Also, his boastings about his "dark side" on collegehints indicate a rather silly idea that nobody is able to correlate anything. Glen on collegehints threatened him with banning after the "dark side" post. I am told, he's now going full speed ahead there. Goody.

Now, having tried Vista University, the University of the Free State, and possibly other schools in his search for a legitimate degree (see his own words on this website) to crown his otherwise somewhat deficient credentials, he has turned to the questionable Trinity Seminary of Newburgh, Indiana, in hopes that if he delays long enough finishing a nonstandard doctorate under their aegis he will get the RA doctorate he longs for. Oddly, while pursuing what he hopes will become an RA doctorate and boasting of his admission to the (possibly) RA-bound Trinity, he has begun defending the joke Andersonville Seminary and charging its critics (on this website) with "character assassination" for asking reasonable questions about the faculty of that decidedly millish school.

It is my earnest hope that Dr Clifton's ministry in his own church is both ethical and fruitful. It is my earnest hope that his internet behaviour does not reflect his behavior in the "real world." It is my earnest hope that one day he will find and achieve reputable academic success and put all flummery behind him forever. It is my earnest hope that his future internet behavior will be responsible, civil, and grown-up. Whether these hopes materialize is largely up to Dr Clifton's future behaviour, together with the patience and mercy of God.

Oh, BTW, I could not care less about theological differences with Dr Clifton, should he try to claim some sort of bigotry on my part against his views or his present "denominational" affiliation. (Stone-Campbell Restorationists, take note of the quotation marks.) He is perfectly entitled to hold and express whatever views he likes. I scarcely need to document my own cordiality with posters of a very wide range of religious views (and of none).

As a person of mixed racial ancestry, as a former member of the NAACP (I quit over issues of antisemitism), as a former assistant pastor of two African-American churches, and simply as a human being who stands behind his own words in public fora, I am mystified by Dr Clifton's racist and obscene epithets--both by his choice of words and his transparently silly attempts to deny them.

Dr Clifton is accorded an indulgence on this board given to no other (former?) millist or promoter of joke schools. I do not question the moderators' decision, and appreciate the freedom to point out all this dubiousness in order to defend innocent posters from being intentionally or unintentionally misled.

I have tried to keep this as matter-of-fact as possible. If I have descended into invective--as opposed to sober recitation of fact--my sincere apologies to other posters and the moderators of this board. I have been aware of some of the vicissitudes of Dr Clifton's career for twenty years, long before I ever heard of distance education. I wish him well in the future and hope that his behavior on and off the internet eventually falls into line with his copious protestations of innocence and repentance.

We'll see. Well, we might see. That, too, depends.

Mark, there you have it.

 

Forums such as OnlineCollege allow an individual to change or delete their posts at any time. The full text of Jimmy's post is as follows:

As is his wont, Jimmy posts things, regrets them, and then tries to cover his tracks. This reminds me of when he had an entire thread on Yahhoo.com pertaining to the degree mill he ran and the granting of degrees for no work deleted.

As far as I am concerned, all of Jimmy’s points are moot. Is there a racial epithet or obscenity that, in the mind of an individual who purports to be a “man of the cloth,” equates to being called "a filthy, disgusting, evil Hound of Hell!!!!" and “Satan incarnate?” And, yes, I made a copy of the Web Page before James also changed his post with the quote in question.

 

Hmm.

"he lied"
"liar...filthy, disgusting hound of hell"
"evil...'Satan incarnate'...very very dangerous person"

I had no idea he was now on this level. I guess he really likes me. Aww.

Thanks, Gus.

 

First, where are the obscenities?

Gus' post refers to a post made AFTER Janko's post about my using obscenities.

Now, "marime" is a word Gypsies use and it means "polluted" or "unclean." (CULTURAL DIVERSITY, Caroline Young and Cyndie Koopsen, 1998.

This comes from a textbook from my CCHS course on cultural diversity. There is no mention of it meaning what Janko says.

If it does, in fact, mean what he claims, I apologize. But only the two aforementioned definitions are mentioned in the book.

The word "gajo," defined in the same text, means "barbarian" or "non Gypsy."

If anyone wants me to make copies of these pages, I will be glad to and mail them to you.

Again, Uncle Janko, where are the obscenities?

 

Again, where are the obscenities????????????????

Gus left that I said "IF" you said I used racial epithets and obscenities you are these things. No obscenities, no racial epithets.

You made statements you cannot back up.

So now I end my posting on this subject. You have been exposed as one who lies.

 

FORGOT SOMETHING

From this website

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/healthus.htm

"Marime, meaning polluted, defiled, or unclean, is used to indicate uncleanliness or impurity of a physical as well as a ritual or moral nature. To be "clean," the top half of the body from the waist up ideally must be kept separate from the bottom half of the body, which is considered polluted and is an area associated with feelings of shame.[3] The source of pollution of the lower body is the genitoanal area and its emissions and secretions. Secretions from the upper half of the body are not polluting or shameful. For example, spittle is viewed as a clean and curative substance that may be used to clean cuts or scratches. This viewpoint conflicts with medical practice, which sees spittle as a possible source of contagion. Separate soap and towels are allocated for use on either the upper or the lower part of the body, and they must not be allowed to mix. Bathing in a hospital can be easily accommodated to Gypsy beliefs by providing them with separate soaps and towels for the upper and lower parts of the body. "

From this website

http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Romano/00000012.htm

"There is properly no indefinite article: gajo or gorgio, a man or gentile; o gajo, the man."--------CCHS course says it means "non-Gypsy or barbarian" which also means "gentile."

NOWHERE on the Internet can I find Janko's definitions--NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I remember the context I used "marime." I said "Don't be so marime."

If I meant the "N" word, how stupid would this sentence be?

NOWHERE on the Internet does this mean the "N" word!!!!!!!

So, obviously I meant "Don't be so polluted" referring to his use of profanity and insults towards me.

 

Uncle Janko wrote:

> Dr Clifton removed from the internet evidence of joke
> seminaries associated with his name as an official or promoter
> (Barton Stone, St Paul, and Concordia Theologica)

Just to clarify, these were not "joke seminaries" in the same sense that "L.I.A.R." and "the Millard Filmore Institute" were joke schools. Jimmy's diplomas looked serious enough: http://web.archive.org/web/20011115103747/http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/graphics/mtdeg.jpg

 

Thanks, Mark. No, not joke schools like those.

I also was not aware that Dr Clifton was National Pastor of somethng called the "Evangelical Christian Church". I'm impressed. That was just after being grand high pooh-bah of the Evangelical Protestant Church and before turning into a Restorationist, I guess. Sorta like the Pope trading himself to the Parsees for Zubin Mehta and a third baseman to be named later.

Just to clarify further:

Now Dr Clifton has called me a liar.

He is trying with internet material (always a shaky area for Dr Clifton) to prove that language I heard from earliest childhood, words I heard from earliest childhood, do not mean what they mean. Sorry, Jimmy, every Rom person I ever heard call somebody marime was calling that person a whore, and every Rom person I ever heard use the word gajo used it as a derogatory racist term. Where I was, it got used against blacks and it meant nigger.

Jimmy, don't you dare try to lecture any person of mixed racial background. (I bet you'll claim that, now, too. If so, all the more reason for you to be ashamed of yourself.) Your epithets are like pornography. We know 'em when we see 'em.

[Posters of good will, my apologies for the following, and for not asterisking above, but enough is enough. , If you don't get it, suppose I call you, a human being, a c**n. Would you think a) I am using a racist term about you as an African-American or that b) my admittedly poor vision has led me to confuse you with a smallish animal with a mask on its face and a propensity to dumpster dive.]

As usual, you are trying to hide from your own words.

By the way, the term "Gypsy" is racist and derogatory. If you know so much about things Rom, surely you know that, and used a racist epithet knowingly. Again.

Jimmy is trying to hide behind a quibble about definitions.

Let him define:
Barton Stone Seminary
St Paul Seminary
Concordia Theologica Seminary
Earlham School of Religion (sorry, Friends)
Bethany of Dothan
Golden State
Evangelical Protestant Church (obiit 1925)
Six Principle Baptists (obiunt ca. 1960)
Harrison Shuemake and "Bethany's Credence"
Andersonville Seminary
Vista University
University of the Free State
uneducated use of psychological labels as denunciation
Baker Book House
Elton Trueblood (distinguished Quaker publicist)*
Dr. George Bohman*
Dr. Terence E. Johnson*
letters to "The Congregationalist" wanting info at just the time the dead EP church was Dr Clifton's hobbyhorse
erasing internet evidence after it gets cited
assurances to this board that you'd clean up your act
assurances to Glen on collegehints along the same lines
"evil"
"very, very dangerous person"
"Satan incarnate."

*Clifton critics--concerned about flummery as early as 1983-84--and/or dismissed as ignorant by Dr Clifton.

Go ahead, Jimmy, define these. Define your ethics. Define your repentance. Define your morals. Define your bravery. Define your intellect. Define, sir, yourself.

We wait with bated breath.

 

Aw nuts. I forgot "filthy disgusting hound of hell." Define that, too, Jimmy, while you're at it. Thanks.

 

Uncle Janko wrote:

> There are many things that trouble my conscience, sinner
> that I am. Denying my own words is not one of them.

Isn't that a rather strange thing for a pseudonymous person to say?

 

First of all, I had nothing to do with Concordia. That was established after I left the EPC.

Second, why so cruel, Mark? Why so hard-hearted to keep bringing up the past. The atheist I knew as a decent, compassionate, forgiving person.

I addressed all these issues in this post, dated 9/4/03:

Do you enjoy hurting people, Mark? Do you wish for others to constantly remind you of mistakes, stupid decisions, and bad actions of the past?

Come on, Mark, show some heart here.

 

Not really, Mark. I promote nothing. I advertise no schools. I do not brag about my degrees, although I've mentioned them. I do not claim expertise where I have none. I do not trail unaccredited mill doctorates after my name. I do not vituperate other posters. I do not violate professional conduct standards by offering psychological diagnoses over the internet. I want no prestige. I do not lie. I keep my freedom of speech--and a clear conscience. I have never hidden from anything I have posted on this or any other forum. I never will, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent. If it's good, accept it. If it's bad, correct it. If it's indifferent, ignore it. My person is insignificant. The facts stand for themselves.

 

Uncle Janko writes:

> He is trying with internet material (always a shaky area for
> Dr Clifton) to prove that language I heard from earliest
> childhood, words I heard from earliest childhood, do not mean
> what they mean. Sorry, Jimmy, every Rom person I ever heard
> call somebody marime was calling that person a whore, and
> every Rom person I ever heard use the word gajo used it as a
> derogatory racist term. Where I was, it got used against blacks
> and it meant nigger.

My own Web search bears out Jimmy's: marime means "unclean", and gajo means "non-Rom".

I'm sure Janko knows much more Rom than Jimmy or I could ever hope to glean from books or the Web. But there are different dialects of Rom, and perhaps Janko is familiar with localized or colloquial usages that are not widely recorded. (One Web page says, "Non-Romanies sometimes refer to Romanies as 'blacks' because most Romanies are dark-skinned. Similarly, Romanies sometimes refer to non-Romanies as 'whites.'" http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/C/CZECHREP/CZECH.928/czech928full.pdf So the use of gajo to refer to a black person is an interesting reversal.)

Jimmy's out-of-the-blue use of Rom was puzzling and tasteless, but I sincerely doubt he knows enough Rom to have intended the words in the senses familiar to Janko.

> By the way, the term "Gypsy" is racist and derogatory.

Some Rom consider the term offensive; others apply it to themselves. Many people familiar with the word "gypsy" are unfamiliar with the word "Rom", and I myself might use "gypsy" to clue them in to whom I'm talking about.

 

As a fallen away linguist, I can see how using "marime" to mean "unclean" and "whore" could both be possible. Likewise, the word "gajo" can mean "non-Rom", but can certainly have other meanings. The Japanese use the word, "Gaijin" to mean foreigner, but it also has a less-nice meaning as well. This dual-meaning of words is common across languages.




Tom Nixon

 

So Jimmy went to all the trouble of tracking down a member of the Rom or obtaining a Romany lexicon in order to tell Janko, "Don't be so UNCLEAN, and stop acting like a NON-ROM."?

That scenario requires a puzzling amount of effort on Clifton's part for little return. If the intended meaning was benign, why not say it in English?