Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Kizmet, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  4. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes. That's what tyranny really looks like. Not Obamacare; tear gassing peaceful political protests.
    Maniac Craniac and Bill Huffman like this.
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    It's tyranny any time you use force to make people do what they don't want to do. You're looking at the tusk of the elephant, but it has many other parts.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  7. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Some things to note about these Hong Kong protests is --

    If enacted, this new extradition law would effectively gut the rule of law in Hong Kong, by allowing Beijing to move trials of Hong Kong residents (citizen or foreign) and even visiting tourists, to mainland courts and the "justice" system that prevails there.

    They are big. As many as 1/3 of Hong Kong's population are estimated to have participated in them.

    They come on the 30th anniversary of the Tienanmen massacre. We can be sure that the CCP in Beijing is acutely aware of that. They perceive any pro-democracy movements as anti-CCP and are deathly afraid of them spreading around the country.

    The current Chinese leadership is currently under pressure and has lots on its plate. There's the current trade crisis with the United States which threatens the entire 'business model' for China's supposedly-inexorable rise. There are lots of potential challengers who might make moves to replace President Xi. So Xi probably feels pressure to act dynamically so as to appear strong.

    Rumors are that the Hong Kong Garrison has been alerted to be ready to take to the streets. The Hong Kong Garrison are several thousand PLA soldiers stationed in Hong Kong who keep a very low profile and aren't allowed off base in uniform. In addition, the entire Southern Theater Command of the PLA (so the rumors have it) has been alerted for possible action. So tanks are apt to roll and another Tiananmen massacre is a very real possibility.

    If the PLA occupies Hong Kong and especially if it starts killing civilians, news will travel around the world instantly. Where Beijing in 1989 had few Western journalists, who could be silenced and expelled quickly, Hong Kong is swarming with media and foreign expatriots and it will be much harder for the CCP to prevent word from getting out, complete with graphic videos.

    A Hong Kong military occupation and massacre will lead to a wholesale exodus of businessmen. Foreigners certainly and probably any local Hong Kong business people who can escape the PLA. The wealthier among them have already squirreled away huge assets here in the United States for just such a day.

    Hong Kong essentially serves as China's USB port into the world financial system. Hong Kong violence would totally disrupt that.

    Events like this would have a huge impact in Taiwan. China is currently trying to use a carrot-and-stick policy with Taiwan, promising them how wonderful it will be for Taiwan to become another Chinese province and promising Taiwan that there's nothing to be afraid of, the 'one nation, two systems' malarkey that Hong Kong was promised in 1997 will protect them. Except, if Hong Kong is occupied and massacres take place... Which just leaves the stick, Beijing's often repeated invasion threats.

    In hopes of defusing the crisis, the Administrator of Hong Kong (almost certainly with Beijing's approval) has tried to placate the demonstrators by promising to suspend enacting the extradition law and instead seek more public input before doing so. But the demonstrators are having none of it saying that enacting the law must not be merely 'suspended' but taken off the table entirely. Reportedly the demonstrations are continuing this weekend.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    It may also be worth noting that this is happening within a larger context of certain countries setting the precedent of simply annexing others' territory. Most notable was Putin's land grab in the Ukraine. The lack of a consistent response to such behavior is likely to embolden China.
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    The line between tyranny and living in a civilized society is a bit blurrier than some people wish to acknowledge. I may want to go into the bank vault. If I try, I will be prevented by force.

    I would also be prevented by force from building an unsafe structure in my yard. I can most definitely be prevented by force from selling a dangerous substance and calling it medicine.

    We lived with freedom to that degree before. It resulted in people's jaws falling off.

    If you are a felon and you attempt to exercise your second amendments rights, you will be stopped. You will be forcibly deprived of your freedom and property.

    There are many instances where the government uses force to prevent you from doing whatever you want to do. Of course, the line between libertarian and anarchy can itself get a bit hazy.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  10. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    The People's "Liberation" Army's Hong Kong garrison posted this to twitter yesterday:


    It's pretty obviously a warning.

    What's more, troops have been reported gathering near Hong Kong's border. Last I heard it wasn't clear if they are regular army or some kind of paramilitary riot police. I assume that they wanted to be seen and are another bit of warning that in Beijing's view Hong Kong's time is up.

    Another Tiananmen bloodbath may be coming.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  12. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    The last couple of days demonstrators have successfully shut down Hong Kong's airport. That's exceedingly provocative and riot police are battling them today.

    Meanwhile the Chinese "People's Liberation Army" is preparing for action in Shenzen on Hong Kong's border.

    The demonstrators seem to have support from much of the population of Hong Kong, their demands have moved on from the extradition bill to democracy itself, and Beijing and the communist party aren't going to grant it and compromise on their own absolute hegemony.

    So I don't think that this is going to end well.

    Photos and videos from Shenzen here:


    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  13. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Yes, it's growing way beyond the original issue.
  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I am afraid you're right. I have to say though that it was bound to happen. Beijing is not about to back down. I expect that we will soon see some action that looks like out-takes from Red Dawn.

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