Do you think that DL doctorate programs are doomed?

I have always thought that the dropout rate in doctoral programs was at least 50%. Especially true if you count those that never make it past the ABD phase. Am I wrong?

 

It is quite common for some saturated fields such as sciences and arts to ask for post doctoral research experience for an academic position. I have seen many ads asking for 2 to 4 years of post doc work.

 

There is no proof that they are easier from the academic point of view but they have easier access compared to traditional doctorates.
Most traditional departments at Universities would take only very few students as it is expected that students would get a salary during their studies at the University, it is hard to get acceptance at most traditional research universities as they require GRES, GMATs, high GPAs, etc. This is expected as the University doesn't want to pay a salary to a student that is not going to produce any substantial research for the school.

For online doctoral programs at for profits, there is no limit to the number of students accepted as the school is not paying salaries to potential graduate students. On the contrary, the students are paying larges amount of money to become doctors so it is in the best interest of the school to accept as many as possible as this maximizes profits.

In few words, doctoral programs were not created to graduate large amount of individuals for the work force but as training programs for potential faculty. Online schools have found a niche for doctoral education as many working professionals want to become faculty but they are not willing to give up a substantial salary for a poorly paid doctoral student salary. The professional wants to maximize profits and minimize risk by attending an online doctoral program but many do it with the intention to jump into the academic market. This in theory sounds possible but in practice the academic market is very limited and it cannot take extra number of graduates from online programs as they tend to be a lot more than traditional programs that only graduate few a year (not for academic but mainly economic reasons).

The question is, what would happen when the professionals paying large amounts of money for tuition fees realize that the academic market is not longer willing to take the new doctoral graduates?
A possibility would be that the industry starts accepting the doctorate degree as the new master and/or that the adjunct market starts requiring the doctorate degree as the minimum requirement for people wanting to teach.

I don't see the market changing their requirements from an MBA to a PhD only because the PhD is not meant to prepare high level executives as the MBAs but researchers and academics. The adjunct market is already changing rapidly and requiring the PhD slowly as the minimum qualification but at the same time salaries seem to be going down to the point that very few would be willing to pay the loads of money to become PhD.

 

This is my point, schools like University of Toronto and McGill only accept 2 to 3 doctoral students in a field per year. Even at the 50% completion rate you have 1 or 2 graduates in a field per Canadian University. If Capella enrolls 300 doctoral students in education and lets say that only graduates 150, this is about the same number of graduates for the complete set of Canadian Universities in one year.

 

Very insightful. Thank you.

 

Ok If I may interject here. If we look at the market for Ph.D's, The question becomes how many in any one subject is truly needed? Directly speaking I don't have an issue with Capella graduating 150 new doctoral student's. That Said, if the demand for Ph.D's stays at a flat level and the amount of new doctoral graduates moves up. Then it would make sense that you should see a continual drop in compensation as the market gets more and more flooded( a lot like what has happened with Bachelor Degrees). This could easily make in some instances the barrier to entry a Doctorate. I know that when I was at the community college level a doctorate was rare, that could easily change to be the rule for example. Also it could create a dual level of doctorates, one where the more traditionally trained Ph.D is sought after for positions and the newer for-profit/DL degrees are not accepted in the same class academically which may make it far tougher to effectively use the degree. To make matters worse, the fact that many of these for-profits are online it is possible that at some point cheaper replacement faculty could be found in places like India and China( that is if the regional accrediting authorities allow such to happen). DO I think all of that could happen? Yes. Is it likely? no. More a doomsday scenario.

 

Part of what you say is currently happening. Traditional universities already do not accept most DL PhD's as being equal. It's very difficult, almost impossible, to get a tenure track position with a DL doctorate. So that much of what you say is not a doomsday scenario, it's fact. We tell ourselves that this is changing, I hope it is, but I'm not sure it ever really will. If it does change, it will happen very slowly.

 

In a way traditional universities' policies are not too important for most students. Even without DL doctorates there are very few traditional professorships available for even the best degree holders. Most scholars have to accept that at some point they will have to enter the regular workforce. To me it seems positive that very educated people will use their abilities in places outside academia. Has anyone walked through a big university library and seen the rows and rows of unread scholarship? Academia is great but it's not the only place for scholars. Anyway...in my opinion there's a place for a scholarly class outside of academia. Quite often scholars who have never left academia have a very sheltered world view that is often of little value in practical terms.

 

For example...

I'd prefer to hear about public education from a DL EdD who works as a k12 administrator than an academic who's never worked outside the university, regardless of their pedigree.

 

I may be missing something but is a tenure track position the holy grail? Is that the only reason most people see to get a doctorate? I want one because...well to adjunct and because I get tuition assistance and it is fun. Why work for a school, like USF, and get paid the roughly same money as a full time online instructor at a place like South University? I would rather be home and not deal with students face to face.

 

I assume these questions are rhetorical and, thus, must strongly agree!

 

I think we are moving in to direction when the DL Doctoral program is as good as the name recognition and tier of the issuing institution.

There is no DL stamp on Degree or transcript.

So if you earn Doctorate from lets say NYU and its by DL vs on campus it may have no difference.

 

Thank you, Michael, for initiating another interesting topic that has provided some fascinating discussion.

Having followed the survey of earned doctorates for a number of years, it has become obvious that the long-predicted "doctoral glut" has not really happened (except in some disciplines). Even with the advent of DL doctrates, we have only seen modest increases. As others have pointed out, there is so much attrition in doctoral programs. Many reports state that about half of doctoral students drop out before getting to the dissertation phase. Of those remaining, about half will never finish the dissertation (and become ABDs).

With all due respect to our colleague RFValve, while some non-profit (and a few for-profit) doctoral programs provide paid internships (either teaching or research) for students, many (if not most) do not. There are limits to the number of doctoral student slots available at both non-profit and for-profit doctoral programs (although the threshold of for-profits are usually higher).

The assumption that most people going through DL doctoral programs are looking for full-time faculty positions is also mistaken. While some are, the majority are mid-career professionals looking to advance in their current positions. These include teachers and community college professors, who can receive substantial salary increases and opportunitites for promotion with a doctoral degree. DL doctorates are also becoming very popular with K-12, college and university administrators and industry training managers. Those who want a doctorate to enhance their consulting credentials or to be more competitive as adjunct faculty are also a notable proportion of DL doctorate seekers. Acceptance of DL degrees is lowest for full-time tenure-track faculty positions at traditional universities, but is rising in nearly all other areas.

 

Oh yeah, I totally agree, Maniac. I wouldn't want a tenure track position anyway. I'm with you, I'm doing my PhD mostly because I love to write papers, study and I just want a doctorate. I was just saying that as a response to another thread because the author mentioned it. As a teacher, I automatically move over a column in the pay scale with my doctorate...automatic pay raise...Wooo Hoo

 

Thanks for the kind words, Dr. P! I'm one of the K-12 teachers you are talking about. As I said before, with a doctorate, I get an automatic pay raise that will eventually pay for my degree. A doctorate also makes it more likely that I can become a principal someday (that may be a fate worse than death). I will try to adjunct if I can, but I'm OK either way.

 

Thanks for the award!

 

I agree with Lerner.

I don't think that most employers who need doctoral-level talent care a whole lot whether a doctorate is DL or not. What they care about is whether the doctorate comes from a program with a strong reputation in the subject of the degree. The problem is that few DL doctoral programs satisfy that criterion.

The point is that if a DL doctoral program developed a reputation as a leader in something, then I expect that its degrees would be competitive with B&M degrees.

I'm not sure that the difference between academic and non-academic employers is as large as some think. I know for a fact that doctoral-level hiring in the biotech industry is often competitive and lots of attention is paid to the programs that candidates attended and what their research experience was. I'm sure that the same thing is generally true at other advanced technology firms, museums and cultural institutions, laboratories and think-tanks, government agencies, and so on.

 

And exactly how many of these "DL doctoral programs" have you been through or is this just your personal bias of such programs, absent any practical or factual basis?