do courses graded by curve discourage cooperation among students?

He all,

I've got a situation that I don't really need advice about, but I did want to comment on it. I'm taking a fairly hard DL class right now that is graded on a curve, meaning that one's grade is based on its relation to the rest of the class. This is the type of class where the median score on homeworks are in the 50-60% range.

Now here is the situation. Recently, I discovered some great online resources that have really helped me understand the homeworks and the material in the class. My first thought was to email the rest of the class to tell them of this great find. However, after thinking about it I realized that this would actually be detrimental to me. If I keep this info to myself, my grade relative to the others in the class should be higher than If I did not have the new resources. However, if I give this information to the rest of the class, their grades will go up as well, which, in effect, lowers the value of what ever grade I get. For example: If the class average for a homework is 55% and I get a 75% due to these resources, That could mean an A for me . However, if I give the information out to everyone and it raises the average to 75%, then I get a b or C.

Now everytime I examine this situation (discounting any "your good deeds will eventually be rewarded" stuff) I come to the same conclusion. This may also explain why there seems to be much less discusion between students on the mailing list than I normally see in classes like this. Perhaps everyone in class has come to this conclusion and are keeping their own little "discoveries" to themselves. What do you guys think of all of this?


Jon

 

I don't know any professor that uses the bell curve, it not only discourages working together (wich is the opposite from the "real world", it also makes inconsistency from one semester tot he next.

I use a curve, but I call it "added points". If the ighest grade was a 98%, I add 2 percent to all grades. Unfortunately, there always seems to be one that gets a cool 100%, and nobody gets any points added.

Te point is to learn and the bell curve does not seem to help the learaning process, as seen by your example. Just my thougths.

 

In my program, I am generally not allowed to give "A"s to 50% or more of the class. So there is some "grading to the curve" in the sense that I need to calibrate my grading to ensure that I don't exceed the limit. It's usually not a problem for me though. And nobody ever scored 100% !!

 

In my experience, grading on the curve fosters a spirit of cooperation among the students who are at the bottom. It makes them come together to discuss how best to take out the jerk who's setting the top of that curve. I was that jerk once, and man, it was scary

p.s. Be a pal and share the info with your classmates.

 

While not wishing to intrude on weird assessment schemes, I cannot help but comment that grading a class against each other means that the grades each class earns are not comparable over time. Thus, somebody gaining a pass in 2003 may not have gained a pass in 2004, but might have got a distinction in 2001, which is silly.

Grades are awarded, or ought to be, so that they are comparable year against year. You are competing against a standard not against the performance of class mates. The alternative leads to grade inflation.

A concern that somebody is graded 98 per cent (itself a nonsense except in maths or similar subjects) and this mucks up a 2 per cent lift to everybody else, is a serious change of scales such as to negate the purpose of grading.

As for separate 'curves' for separate exams in the same subject each exam, what exactly is being measured?

 

That same dilemma, if it is one, comes up in all areas of life. Would you share like information with those you are likely competing with for a job promotion? What if the info you have will help not just your potential competitors but your organization as well? Keep it to yourself?

How about a desired mate? Share what you know of she or he with potential rivals?

I have generally been very "giving" in that regard (well, not with the mating thing) and can tell you that reciprocation has been rare. Maybe you should let out a bit of your knowing to see if the kindness is returned.

 

Generally I agree with the professor that curves are not a good idea, though there is at least one example in my experience where it made sense. I once took over a math class, mid-term, for a teacher who went on indefinite leave. The class had been floundering with a series of subs before I took over. When we got to the end of the course and I graded the finals, I realized that most students had done fairly well on the material I taught (more a testament of their intelligence rather than my teaching), and generally did poorly on the earlier material. I curved the grades because I didn't feel it fair to punish them for circumstances outside their control. This was an effort to make the grades comparable to other classes over time. Students that I felt were A students should get an A etc.

 

Percentiles would work. Easier to order students than anything else. Would probably provide too much info.

 

I would share your information.
It might well be that other students have found even better resources than you found.

 

Question for you then. If you asked a question on a test and everybody missed it (or a large majority), would you include it in the grading of a partciular test?

With a less than 2% change, it would not make a "serious" change to anything.

 

Hi Han

Good question. It happend in our last exam Diet in my Negotiation course. In our exams there is no choice of questions (3 hrs, closed book, etc.,) and in two of the three essay type questions, one third of the class did not provide pass standard answers to Q1 and half the class did not attempt the second part of question of Q3 at all. That particular exam had 300+ students in it. With less than half marks out of 20 each for Q1 and Q3, many more students failed their exam than is normal (the fail rate rose from 20 per cent to near 35 per cent).

No allowance was made for those who could not or did not answer the questions. There was no ambiguity in the question and the topics in each covered subjects prominent in the course materials. These students had not properly prepared for their examination to EBS standards.

To have not included these performances in the final grading would have made the exam uncomparable with previous and subsequent examinations. The exam is a standard upon which the University awards an attestation of the students' fitness, or lack of it, in that subject.

Great care is taken in the selection of exam questions; the examiner has to provide a written solution to the question for the External Examiner (senior faculty from other British universities) and the question is checked internally by an 'editor' (sense, grammar, clarity, etc.,) and the External examiner, and, in our case, also provide the references from where the questions topics are covered in the distance learning materials.

The concerns about the '98 per cent and 2 per cent' are in the original message in this thread. I found the notion of such adjustments and, except in maths, the '98 per cent' grade 'silly', unless the questions are very easy and the answers mere regurgitation. This is the root of grade inflation and student negotiated grading.

I take Tom57's point as his was a maths class and 100 per cent is possible in such subjects. However, in DL I am more concerned with the students' learning than with a teacher's teaching!

 

Did anyone else notice the similarity between this and the "Prisioner's Delemma problem in Game Theory? Guess that microeconomic theory class I took in undergrad was useful after all .

Jon

 

Interesting. I have given essay questions, where I give the criteria up front, and questions are worth 10 points. Most questions have at least 5-8 components to them. I have seen that a majority of the class will miss one part of one question. If it is consistent, then I will ususally "add" the points, since it was either an ambiguous question, or something was wrong. (If all the student miss a question, I would think that would be my fault for not articulating the concept and its importance).

I am very up front, the test is not to trick anyone, but to make sure they have knowledge of the concepts that are most critical for that part of the course.

Several of the students (about 2-3) meet and go over questions, answers, and really get into getting a perfect score. I like the enthusiasm.

Anyway, I think each person's method is different, and that is OK as long as the learning process takes place.

 

One large group has a 20 % failure rate.

Another has a 35 % failure rate.

It is the fault of the students and not a bias in the exam.

And the 4 statistics courses I have taken are, of course, meaningless.

 

You 'da man, Dennis!

I could barely get by two!

 

What if one question had a 95% or 100% failure rate, not the entire exam? Would you throw the question out?

 

When I was in law school, we were graded on a curve.

I found it did foster cooperation more than hinder it. We formed study groups because we realized we'd be lost without sharing information and challenging one another. I had the same type of situation in engineering.

The gunners that thought they'd do it on their own and not share were generally the ones at a disadvantage because pooled resources and challenging one another are often vital to learning material.

I guess it depends on the type of class and how challenging it is to learn on your own. I've found study groups to help me more than any other form of learning, though.

 

Actually 2 were raw, brutal stats, 2 were application of stats to research.

 

Dennis: "One large group has a 20 % failure rate.

Another has a 35 % failure rate.

It is the fault of the students and not a bias in the exam.

And the 4 statistics courses I have taken are, of course, meaningless."

It is not clear if this is a sarcastic comment, but it is not an accurate statistical comment.

The fact is something like two hundred large groups have experienced a 20-25 per cent failure rate, not just one of two large groups. You should check the number of samples.

Another fact is that two of the essay question topics have appeared at various time spread over the large samples of the 20-25 per cent failure rate groups. They are covered in the course, are not obscure questions and were not the work of the grader alone. Peer examiners, both internal and external, check all questions in the exams, and check their coverage in the course materials.

No examinees commented in their answer books (which they normally do if a question is challenged for any reason). No examinees have expressed criticism of the questions from the large failure rate group and, so far, no appeals are pending (yet), either in writing or on the subject web board, or the students' web site.

The only variable is in the composition of the large groups - different people. All other factors - course materials, for instance - are exactly the same, as is the grader. You should look for variabilities in the context of the examinations. There were none.

Conclusion: this was a less well prepared group than the others.

 

having a small study group within a larger class would be beneficial to the participants. They have access to not only their own resources, but those of others in the group, and all of those resources are kept within the group, thus, not distorting the curve too much. Now if the study group is the entire class we are back where we started.

But even in a study group situation, a person could still fully participate and at the same time keep some resource to himself. In this way, he gains all of the benefits of the study group, while keeping the advantage his resource to himself. I believe people like this are refered to as "free riders" in economics, but I may be streching the meaning of the term a bit.

Personally, I would probably share everything I had with a study group if I was in one, but I also aknowledge that it may not be in my best interest to do so.

Jon