DL Law study

I attended a live review for the Baby Bar after my first year, and passed it with a grade of B on my first try, followed by passing the MPRE. Many of my virtual classmates did not fare as well.


I commend your effort on passing the FYLSE on the first try with a B. I am aware of BAL's October pass rate and find it chilling and again respect your accomplishment. Any suggestions on completing this exercise are sincerely appreciated. Additionally, input on Flemings' Review or other prep courses are most appreciated.

Best of luck with your law career and thank you in advance for your assistance.

Jim

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Jim--

I took the Fleming BB review by audio tape, and found that it boosted my confidence. It also provided structure. The most valuable service, for me, was the cassette tape critique of my sample essay questions.

The live review was offerred by BAU the weekend before the exam. It was cool to meet the people on the discussion board.

My advice is simple: practice. Do as many multistate questions as possible, and write as many practice essays as possible.

The law is the law is the law. There's no magic. I didn't learn any new legal principles through the reviews.

Do not underestimate the stamina factor. Four hour-long essays and 100 multiple choice hypotheticals require time management and stamina.

I also strongly recommend typing. Try handwriting at high speed for four hours and you'll see why. Even a "hunt and peck" method is superior to longhand!

What school are you enrolled in?

Best wishes,

Christopher

 

Yes, the London Institute of Legal Education is a tutorial service. This issue is settled.

To all those who have posted here or have an interest in distance education with institutions in England and Wales, recent issues of the National Jurist magazine has numerous advertisements of ABA approved law schools linked to law schools in the United Kingdom. There are those who have commented that an education from a UK school could be a waste of time but the ABA approved schools themselves have acknowledged the worth of a UK legal education.

This year Columbia University Law School began a combined JD/LLB with a UK university in a 2+2 program for both degrees. You can find out more about it at http://www.law.columbia.edu

 

Recently I spent some time surfing through the websites of various DL law study programs. I was particularly interested to see why Oak Brook College appears to be such an exception to the norm when it comes to the typically dismal pass rates of DL law schools on the California "Baby Bar" and bar exam.

Obviously these are impressions based on institutional self-descriptions rather than an independent evaluation, but for what it's worth, here goes:

1. Oak Brook starts its students out with a residency, and many/most of the other DL law schools do not. As a result, students immediately feel more a part of the institution and part of a cohort of students involved in a common enterprise, and they in general establish an in-person connection to their studies, colleagues, and faculty that is missing from purely non-residential programs.

2. I do not subscribe to Oak Brook's religious tenets (in fact, I find some of their apparent phobias quite offensive), but that institutional mindset probably attracts a group of students who strongly share that worldview and thus on an emotional level will be more invested in the school and their studies.

3. Print out Oak Brook's catalog and compare it to those of other DL law schools. If you glance at it very superficially, you may mistake it for the catalog of one of the better Calif.-accredited residential law schools. There are photos of students studying together and holding discussions with professors. The school also does an excellent job of describing its values (regardless of whether you agree with them!) and educational philosophy. In short, the school sells itself very, very well to prospective students, and it is very up front about the kind of student it seeks.

4. The faculty members have very respectable credentials. No doubt they, too, are attracted to Oak Brook in part because of its stated religious mission.

Obviously the market can absorb only so many Oak Brook Colleges. But I think the overall approach that Oak Brook has adopted provides some useful lessons to other DL institutions offering law degrees.

 

I also very recently looked at Saratoga, British-American, and Oak Brook. I was impressed by British-American's focus on getting one through the Baby Bar and, subsequently, the Bar Exam. But I wasn't impressed with their results.

Saratoga has had pretty good results on the most recent Baby Bars, but I don't believe they've put anyone all the way through to the Bar Exam.

Oak Brook was by far the most impressive. I commented in another forum how impressed I was with the thoroughness and professional look of their website. I, too, feel the residency session plays a major role. (Funny how it's in Oklahoma.) It has been intimated that one who wants a good legal education via DL--and who doesn't agree with Oak Brook's philosophical bent--can choose to ignore their religious fervor. After looking over their website, I'm not so sure.

The most depressing school is Concord, though, with their run-of-the-mill Baby Bar results. One would think that with gobs of money for course development, on-line resources, and the backing of its test-prep parent company (Kaplan), they'd have better results. I still suspect that Oak Brook is pickier in its admissions process while most of the others take all qualified comers.

Interesting note: These programs do not require a bachelor's degree. In fact, you can be admitted with just 60 s.h., or by passing three CLEP General Exams! The 60-credit rule is also common among California's residential unaccredited schools, too (from what I remember).

Rich Douglas

 

It seems to me that unless you want a "vanity" law degree or simply want the knowledge, you are wasting your time with any form of a DL law degree. In today's job environment, there are top 10% students from name schools either unemployed or under-employed; the reality is that there is a glut of lawyers on the market. Why would a firm or agency even consider someone with a DL degree (yes, thre is, even if its unwarranted, a perceived inadequacy) where there are so many to choose from. Even if you were to pass the bar & go solo, prospective clients may not hold a degree from a little-known DL school in as high regard as even the local, well-regognized state school.

Plus, the real value of a legal education is in the practical courses, such as litigation/appellate skills, negotiation, etc. You get no such training via DL.

Put simply, thre are SOOO many law programs out there, many part-time or night, that anyone can get into a program and find the time to study in a RA residential program.

 

Well, as a professor at an ABA-accredited school, I tend to favor an accredited, residential program for those who want to practice law or at least be admitted to a state bar -- this despite the many valid criticisms of residential legal education.

But if someone simply wants the legal knowledge for professional reasons and never intends to practice law -- say, one who is in business, law enforcement, human resources, insurance and loss prevention, etc. -- a quality DL law program may do the trick.

Plus, a few quality DL law programs may help to light a fire under the butts of traditional law schools to be more responsive to the educational needs of their students and to the legal needs of the general public.

 

I'm not so sure about a few of these points. I've lived in three large cities (San Antonio, Washington DC, and Las Vegas, each with more than a million residents) that didn't have part-time law study available from an ABA-accredited school.

While generally speaking the graduate of a DL law program would find his/her options limited, isn't that the whole point about DL? Distance and other forms of nontraditional learning are supposed to be learner-centered, not institution-centered. That extends beyond the degree program into the learner/graduate's life. People who undertake these programs tend to be much more aware of their needs and the situations in which they will apply their credentials and learning. While taking a law degree from a correspondence law school may not be for everybody, it certainly is for somebody.

These programs are not just for "vanity." Many graduates go on to pass the bar and practice as attorneys. What is sad is the low pass rates compared to graduates of accredited, residential schools. But for people who do not have a local school to attend, or cannot fit it into their schedules, or who cannot afford the much higher tuition, a DL law program offers (a much slimmer) hope.

Rich Douglas

 

Rich,

when did you live in DC? AFAIK Georgetown, Catholic, American and GW all have night law programs.....

-me

 

I live there now. I truly didn't know these programs were available. They never (NEVER) advertise the availability of part-time law school, whereas all three advertise a host of other programs available part-time. I just assumed... my mistake. But I'm positive about the other two, and wonder if the same can be said about many other metropolitan areas, not to mention smaller towns and cities. The point is, part-time law programs are hardly universally available. Thanks for clearing me up.

Rich Douglas

 

Goergetown is possibly the best law school in the country with a night program. GW is very well respected in government law (and patent law--I've met a number of ex patent examiners that went there at night while working for the patent office). I remember some years ago a freshman senator was doing American at night (I think it was American)[and why not--he's there for at least 6 years, law school at night is 4 and change].


Many law schools have night programs, but they don't solve some major problems--they still require you to be there continuously for a number of years.

I'd be interested in a program that was ABA accredited and that had you taking short, intense modules one subject at a time--"Need to go on a bussiness trip? no problem--you can take con law next year when it's offered in June". Sitting in a classroom every night for 4 years without being able to go on business trips is just not realistic for anyone with an existing career.

-me

 

I’m sorry, Rich. I don’t mean to disagree with you—especially since you’re so positive, once again—but if there isn’t a part time law program in Las Vegas, how do you explain the welcome letter from Richard Morgan, Dean of the Boyd School of Law, University of Nevada, Las Vegas in which he mentions both the day and night part-time programs that can be completed in 4 years?

See:
http://www.unlv.edu/law_school/welcome.html


Gus Sainz

 

does anyone know where I can find an overview of the existing DL Juris Doctor programs?

thanx in advance,

trigger

 

The ABA publishes a list of accredited law schools (www.abanet.org). They also publish a book that lists each program with some extra information about each (somewhat like the peterson's guides I guess)


As for San Antonio--there is only one ABA school there AFAIK, and there is no night program that I know of (St. Mary's).

There is a night program at National Christian U's law school, but they are not, AFAIK, ABA accredited

-me

 

I checked. American, Catholic, Georgetown and GWU all have night programs. UDC and Howard (the other law schools in the District) don't.

In Vegas, UNLV has a part time day and a part time night program.


-me

 

The UNLV program didn't open until after I left LV in 1998. At the time of its development, however, it looked like it would be small and narrow in nature, with a small student body and a focus on gaming law. At least, that was the talk. And until its opening, there were zero law schools in Nevada.

Western State University College of Law was talking about expanding to Las Vegas. California-based, it was to be the first law school in the state of Nevada. But the Nevada Bar Association shut down that possibility, even though every member of the Bar, by definition, was educated out-of-state.

Now there's talk of a new state school, Nevada State College, opening outside of Vegas (in Henderson). This would only be the third state school in Nevada (UNLV and UN-Reno being the others). I hope they implement a teacher-certfication program; UNLV has the only one of those in the state.

Rich Douglas

 

Most major urban areas are host to at least one ABA-accredited part-time program. (UNLV's new law school, by the way, has come a long way in a short time). But Rich's overall point re the unavailability of part-time residential law school programs in some areas is well taken.

I do have real concerns about DL as the delivery mode for someone who actually wants to practice law. A major, and in my view critical, advantage of doing a residential law degree is the opportunity to do skills courses, internships, and clinical programs during the course of earning a J.D. It is much more difficult, though by no means impossible, to build this into a DL law program. In addition, the "deep immersion" aspect of law school, while it can be taken to unhealthy extremes, allows for extracurricular activities and networking opportunities organized largely by students and can pay dividends in many ways.

Of course, evening residential law students face the same challenges, in that their time is extremely limited and structured.

 

I want to paraphrase something John Bear wrote regarding the potential for success via the DL route. (Success defined as passing the California Bar Exam, which is a far cry from success defined as a law career. But I digress.)

We don't really know how manu people who enroll in DL law programs actually get as far as the Baby Bar. I suspect it is somewhere around half (this might even be generous). Well, history shows that about 25% of them (DL students) will pass the Baby Bar eventually. Of them, we don't know how many will go on to complete their J.D. degrees, but let's assume 75% do (again, very generous). The pass rate for DL graduates taking the Bar is also around 25%. So the proportion of students embarking on a DL J.D. program who eventually make it through the Bar exam is equal to 50% times 25% times 75% times 25%, or .5 x .25 x .75 x .25. That equals .0234375, or about 2.3%. If you adjust downward the first (those who take the Baby Bar) and third (those who take the Bar) factors to .25 and .25, respectively (likely), the number comes to .0078125, or less than 1%. Neither number (2.3% or >1%) is particularly inspiring.

Note: The two test results are skewed by takers from awful schools that no longer qualify people to take the Bar (but still have graduates eligible to try in futility for a few more years). Schools like Pacific Wester, CuLA, and Southland had hardly anyone pass during the times they operated. Of course, that could also be said for some schools operating today.

Rich Douglas