DETC & Regional Accreditation

Gentle correction:

DETC already accredits distance J.D. programs.

The law equivalent to the D.B.A. is the J.S.D., not the J.D.

 

I would not at all be surprised to find people working at RA schools while holding unaccredited doctorates, yet collecting doctoral-level pay. But I doubt this is a common practice.

 

Actually, I am curious how our hypothetical DETC doctorate (or a DETC JD) will be treated in this situation. Will these people be treated as having an accredited degree for pay purposes when teaching fulltime at a RA institution?

I think the answer (based on evidence which we won't see for several years) will tell us much regarding the acceptance of these programs by academia.

 

Please re-read what I said. I said I'd expect to find some people working with unaccredited doctorates (easily found), and would also expect that some of them (a few, anyway) would be getting doctoral-level pay. But if we are to discuss a general expectation, I wouldn't expect NA doctorates to have much recognition at RA schools (with some narrow exceptions).

 

good summary

 

While this may be the reality, it doesn't make it right. I suspect that some of the NA doctorates will be better prepared for college level teaching than many with RA doctorates.

 

But teaching really isn't the point, at least in major universities. Research is.

At the community college level, the Masters seems to be sufficient for most teaching positions.

I think that these degrees (DETC professional dissertation doctorates) might be quite valuable in the real world even if their utility in academia will likely be limited.

There's usually a LOT of competition for university teaching appointments but there are policy connected careers in and out of government where a doctorate could be a significant part of one's portfolio.

 

This is a really good point. If we are looking at the utility of NA degrees, and there are far more NA masters programs than doctoral programs, then perhaps NA masters among community college faculty would be the best way for NA to gain a toe-hold in faculty positions.

Tony

 

I’ve been trying to come up with a list of assumptions to help me frame up the DETC RA thingy. After reading his thread I’ve added #6 and #7 to the list:


1. DETC and the colleges it accredits are 100% legit.


2. In academia land one would expect, for a single 3 credit class that the evaluating RA institute would under normal practice accept transfer credit, that 20% of the RA schools would accept DETC on its face, 20% would be open to the evaluation, and a final 20% would not consider the credit for transfer at all.


3. There has been no research to understand if academia land acceptance is growing or not.


4. In worker day land a degree from a school with DETC accreditation is generally serviceable, but depending on the specialization or individual firm, it may or may not be useful as a credential.


5. There has been no research to understand if worker day land acceptance is growing or not.


6. DETC accredited degrees are professional degrees, not academic degrees, therefore they suck as a teaching credential.


7. Aside from the degree as a credential; the education you get is more dependent on the school than the accrediting institute (RA vs. NA), both offer good, and bad, educations.

 

I would say all of those assumptions are probably true. I look at it as the difference between a diploma from a vocational school (which I have, and it has served me tremendously well) and a college or university with strong roots in academia and research. While you may be able to get a job with either degree, you will find more widespread acceptance with the RA degree, especially when it comes time to go for a graduate degree.

 

I would add to number 7 that the student and their persistence and motivation is as important as the school.

As far as number 6, some of the doctoral degrees and programs through DETC schools will likely contain a large research component. I don't buy the idea that an Ed.D through an NA school will be less academic than and Ed.D or a PhD in education from an RA school.

 

I would accept that as an axiom, but it doesn't change a thing.

 

Because the Doctor of Jurisprudence (J.D.) degree is considered a terminal degree in law.

Penk v. Oregon State Bd. of Higher Educ. 1985 WL 25631 Feb 13, 1985


Also,the Powerful ABA, says that the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence and the Doctor of Philosophy degree shall be considered as equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes.

In addition, ABA order to "all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree-holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions.""

http://www.abanet.org/legaled/council/prior.html#1

 

Does the ABA have any stance on foreign (undergraduate) Bachelor of Laws degrees from outside the US? I recall in another post a court/legal decision stating that the LLB and JD should be considered equivalent for admission to the bar (at least in one state).

Edit: See this post by Nosborne (first reply)

 

I'm inclined to think that research productive schools are in a better position to build academic reputation than schools that sell degrees like commodities. That probably most applies to doctoral programs since these are best able to build reputation independently of the simple fact that they are accredited. (Though quite a few masters level schools produce scholarship as well, occasionally top-level work.)

I think that it might be harder for community college instructors with NA masters degrees to overcome the NA/RA perception thing, when the most convincing thing that they have that attests to the legitimacy of their degree is its accreditation. If that accreditation is (rightly or wrongly) perceived as substandard, then it just won't cut it.

A research-productive program on the other hand, could point to its contributions to the discipline, whatever the program's accreditation happens to be. That's the thrust of my Cold Spring Harbor example. That Ph.D. program is currently only NY-approved, but those Nobel Prizes and the high-profile Cold Spring Harbor symposia make it smell really nice anyway.

That's why I think that DETC, ACICS and the others really need to get to work right now to upgrade the scholarship at their schools, if those accreditors have any ambitions to accredit doctoral programs in the future. It's going to be the scholarly work that these programs turn out that opens the doors to teaching jobs, not just the mere fact that the programs have US Dept. of Education recognized accreditation. (I mean, so what?)

My feeling is that if that happens at the doctoral level, then the NA masters degrees will become better accepted in academia as well, and will be beneficiaries of the doctoral effect.

 

When the NA vs RA discussion comes up it almost always focuses on the DETC vs RA. As you know, there are other NA accrediting agencies...particularly those that specialize in Christian Education/Bible/Theology programs.

Regarding the acceptance of transfer credit from a NA school to a RA school...my personal experience has been extremely positive if the RA school offers religion programs and the NA school is accredited by the ABHE. (ABHE credits usually transfer easily into a RA school that has a religion major but DETC credits are more closely scrutinized.) In fact, many RA schools have their religion programs nationally accredited through the ABHE and/or ATS, and to a lesser degree TRACS. For example: Liberty University, Moody Bible Institute, Grace University, Johnson Bible Colle, Dallas Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, Princeton, Yale, Oral Roberts, etc.

I find it interesting that many RA schools have their religion programs both RA and NA accredited...while in other schools the RA applies only to the secular programs and the NA covers the religion programs. That said, what's the consensus on the credibility and utility of a ABHE or ATS only degree in this field?

Pug

 

I’m new to this forum but from the threads I’ve read, I observed a great deal of emphasis on credentialing as opposed to education. It is certainly true that all the finer universities are regionally accredited, but there are also poor RA universities and really excellent NA accredited schools. An example: Many Wall Street firms employ computer programmers who were trained at the Chubb Institute, which is a NA vocational school, as well as graduates of first tier universities. These firms would never higher an individual who graduated from a RA community college. While, as it has been claimed on this board, University of Phoenix may not hire faculty from NA schools, hardly any RA schools will hire faculty with a UOP doctorate (because its DL) and I will bet that a UOP graduate will have a nearly impossible chance of being admitted to any Ivy League graduate program. The bottom line, IMO, is that while statistically, RA schools are better and more accepted than NA, each school needs to be judged individually on the quality of the education it provides; and that is what will ultimately determine its value in the marketplace.

 

Hi Avi:

You’ll find that this board recognizes the difference between a degree as a credential and a degree as a learning tool, but that the general theme is that the focus is on the credential and a cost benefit relationship with its utility.

While I certainly don’t speak for the board members, this is my impression of where all the arguments go.

I’ve developed assumption number seven for this:

7. Aside from the degree as a credential; the education you get is more dependent on the school than the accrediting institute (RA vs. NA), both offer good, and bad, educations.

 

Re: Re: DETC & Regional Accreditation

But what we talk about is not individual school comparisons (difficult). The NA/RA comparisons usually address sweeping statements over-inflating the real utility of degrees from NA schools.

Education and credentialing are two, separate functions of universities.

 

Re: Re: Re: DETC & Regional Accreditation

Companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange have generally been better investments than companies listed on the NASDAQ. Does that mean that investors should limit their investments to NYSE listed companies? Of course not.
RA schools as a class may be better than NA schools, but its an individual school's quality and employers' perception of it that counts.