DETC Doctorate

Why a DETC doctorate would not really be competing against a large public university

Lack of DL doctorates by state funded universities and if they are available, lack of public knowledge about the program. That pretty much sums it up. Lets use the doctorate in education as an example. Nebraska's program is not well advertised and isn't the first one that pops up when researching a DL program in that field. However, information from schools such as Walden, Cappella, and UoP (just to name a few) is easy to obtain. Large public universities are catering to a much different audience (the in-residence, traditional student) then the private RA schools with large DL offerings.

Another example - Do you want a DL doctorate in business administration from a large state school? Yeah, I can't find one either. However, I can get one from Argosys, Nova, or Northcentral (again, just to name a few). Lack of availablity from the state university means that it is not a competitor to current program offered DL through private RA institutions nor will it be competition for future DETC offerings.

What makes a private DETC school less expensive than a private RA school?
Beats me. I just know that if you do a cost comparison of the tuition for an MBA at DETC schools verses that of DL RA programs, the DETC program is generally less expensive then the least expensive RA DL program (using Amberton as my least expensive RA example).

 

The differences in cost between DETC and RA schools might have more to do with the market than anything else. RA schools offer a more valuable, more widely accepted product.

Also, many DETC schools are correspondence programs. These seem to need little overhead beyond course development and delivery. The huge expense of having faculty members teach the courses is often (but not always) avoided.

It will be interesting to see what happens with AMU's tution should they be granted accreditation. Presumably, their costs won't change. Whaddaya wanna bet their prices do?

 

Another example - Do you want a DL doctorate in business administration from a large state school? Yeah, I can't find one either. However, I can get one from Argosys, Nova, or Northcentral (again, just to name a few).
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It seems odd to me that such a degree isn't available in the U.S. via DL from a major university, especially when you consider how ubiquitous DL MBA programs from top state schools are. Why not the next degree after the MBA?--strange.

Beyond for-profits, the only option for the DL Biz Doctorates in the U.S. are UMUC (which isn't AACSB accredited) and Case Western's DM, which requires a lot of residency and is as expensive as Ivy League--truly for the corporate exec sponsored by his or her company, not for mere mortals.

Yet, if you take a brief flight acroess the Atlantic, you find some very distinguished world-class schools like Aston, Henley, Manchester and Grenoble who offer DL Biz doctorates. These schools--particularly Aston, Henley and Manchester--rank far above the great majority of U.S. schools who apparently think they're too good to offer a DL Biz Doctorate.

Or take other fields: some of the top schools in the U.S. offer doctorates via distance in education, computer science, engineering, etc. Examps: Purdue, Stanford, Nebraska, Montana, Clemson, Mississippi State. Does anyone know why the U.S. would be so forward-thinking in other fields for DL or so forward-thinking within the field of biz for the Master's, yet nobody would step forward to offer the PhD? My guess is that the first large state school that does offer a DL PhD in Management or Biz Admin or a DBA will make money hand over fist and get the pick of the litter of execs, lawyers and small college and community college profs, all of whom only want some viable, AACSB-accredited means of making it to the big leagues of academia.

 

Since AMU seems to cater to military, I think they will either keep their prices in line with the current tuition assistance program or go to a two staged system, one similar to what Touro uses. Just a hunch.

 

Good point.

 

Good question, Rich. In the community college hiring committees of which I have been a part, the BA and MA degrees were always RA, but the doctorates were not always RA. The people without RA doctorates were hired based on their RA masters. If someone with a non-accredited PhD could get a job, someone with an accredited (NA) PhD should have an easier time.

The issue of the NA masters is an excellent one. I would be interested to know if there are DETC masters teaching in RA higher ed.

Tony Pina
Northeastern Illinois University

 

Gregg,

If you were hired by a California Community College, it would be based on another degree that you had earned, rather than your JD. I am not familiar with any associate degree programs in law (although there might be some). Most of the JDs that I knew in the community college arena taught other subjects, such as business, history, political science or administration of justice. No California Community College would give you doctoral-level pay for an unaccredited JD, although most will award doctoral-level pay for an accredited JD.

Tony Pina
(who is moving from hot Southern California this week to cooler Illinois)

 

Re: Why a DETC doctorate would not really be competing against a large public university

You make very good points. It looks as though we at state universities better get our marketing act together if we wish to compete with the up-and-coming DETC doctorates.

Tony Pina
Northeastern Illinois University

 

If you were hired by a California Community College, it would be based on another degree that you had earned, rather than your JD. I am not familiar with any associate degree programs in law (although there might be some).
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Anthony:

There are some, such as business law and criminal justice courses. Many students attend community college to get training to be a legal secretary, to be in law enforcement, or to get the first couple years of a prelaw degree out of the way on a shoestring budget. I saw a FT job posted at a California ccommunity college earlier this year that pad $55-70K for which the only requirement was a J.D. I'm assuming that's doctoral-level pay. You are right in that such positions aren't exactly a dime a dozen.

 

Tony Pina,

a little off topic, Congratulations on the new position!

On topic, my recent experience not with an RA school but with ACICS accredited indicated that they would not allow me to teach in my NA masters concentration but did accept the degree. Only RA graduate credits counted. Lesson learned so I am only attending RA schools for future education. While I was successful in landing the teaching position I am limited to only a couple of classes (undergraduate only)and I believe a waiver was required. My experience would indicate that even if the DETC doctorate is a go it will have the limited utility that has been discussed at length.

The only instance I know of any individual with an NA degree teaching at an RA school is with one of the Faculty at Touro who holds a PhD from Columbia Southern University. This item was discussed earlier in the year.

Congrats again!

 

Well,

after tracking down the thread and rechecking Touro it looks like they have replaced several of their faculty and the individual noted is now teaching elsewhere sans the PhD. My mistake for posting without verifying so it would seem still no examples.

 

Yes, you are right. At College of the Desert, the faculty member who taught business law courses had an RA JD degree (he is now the Dean of the business division). However, I do not believe that we offerred an AA degree in business law. Law enforcement (administration of justice) was a popular degree program taught, primarily by adjunct faculty who were law enforcement officers with graduate degrees (the program coordinator was a former police chief with two masters and a doctorate who beat out 90 applicants for the position). The full-time position that you refernenced was undoubtely at doctoral-level pay. The figure seems right for many California Community Colleges.

Tony

 

Thanks so much. After 11 good years in California with College of the Desert and Cal State San Bernardino, Northeastern Illinois University has provided me with the opportunity to build their distance learning program and lead the initiative to integrate instructional technology throughout the campus. I start there on September 1st.

Tony Pina
Coordinator of Learning Technologies
Northeastern Illinois University

 

Wow, Tony, many congrats to you! This sounds like an excellent position. Will this interfere (beyond the norm, of course) with your dissertation work?

Cheers,
Adrienne

 

Tony:

I know of no business law majors offered either, to my knowledge it's just a class required for most who are seeking an AA or AS in Business. And at Labette CC, where I teach as an adjunct, all of the Criminal Justice classes are taught by adjuncts who are in law enforcemment, so you're right there as well.

There ia a prelaw concentration offered, however, so my guess is that in those rare CCs or JCs that have a FT faculty member who teaches law primarily with the only advanced degree being a JD, the school has a very strong prelaw program or is simply very big and has a lot of Biz Law sections to teach. It can be difficult finding attorneys willing to spend a few hours a week teaching as an adjunct at a CC for relative peanuts--I'm one of those singular fools--so it stands to reason that in some cases, it's better to create a FT position.

Here's a curiosity: at the small university where I teach as an adjunct (Friends University), they have a unique degree: "Master of Studies in Business Law". I still haven't exactly figured out the purpose of that rather unique program--perhaps to qualify one to teach Business Law?

By the way, are you hiring up there? I'll be throwing my hat back into the ring next year, maybe this time around I'll stick somewhere in FT faculty.

Cheers!

 

Thanks, Adrienne. Since they want me to help covert their small videoconference-based distance learning program into a much bigger web-based program, my dissertation research into institutionalizing distance learning programs will fit right into my job. My dean and provost have offered me a significant pay raise as soon as I defend my dissertation (which should be in a couple of months). That is a definite incentive to finish.

I also will not have to fly to Chicago this year to present at the AECT conference--I'll just drive over from home!

Tony

 

I actually start on September 1st; but when I get there, I'll keep my eyes open...keep in touch!

Tony

 

I actually start on September 1st; but when I get there, I'll keep my eyes open...keep in touch!

Tony
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You're a gentleman and a scholar!

 

Hey Tony, congratulations both on your new job and on being close to completing your doctorate.

Chicago's a very cool city. (The winters are a little too cool.) Are you gonna be a Cubs fan now?