Degrees and Ministerial Credibility: Church Division Releases Statement

Dr. Morris,

Since I recognize the unacrettied status of the school I only give it out when asked...

NTS is just an abreviation for non traditional schooling.

My Accredited work is with Florida Memorial College, Miami...2 years, and the Comunity College of the Air Force 29 Credits. My continuing education work is with Thomas Nelson Community College, Newport News Virginia, Hampton University-Hamptom Virginia, Virginia Union University-Richmond, Virginia and Shaw University-Raleigh, NC

My unacredited work and degrees are with the infamous Triune Biblical University. I attended an extension center in Chase City Virginia from Sep of 1990 until June of 1997. The degrees granted were Bachelors in Biblical Studies..1991, Masters in Theology...1994, and Doctorate in Ministry ...1997. (Please know that I am persona non gratis with Triune because of my views)

I have been informed today that I have been accepted at Defiance College in Ohio and they will work with me to clear up my debt at FMC before they transition me into the RA program. I can do it Independent study. I have also been accepted at St. Augustine's in Raleigh.

Once that is fixed, then it is on to Southeastern or Shaw.

 

My family is looking to relocate in a couple of years to Iowa, once my eldest daughter graduates high school next year. My wife did her Masters in Creative Writing at UNI. She wants to go back and get her Doctorate.

I realize that the move may not result in an immediate ministry position/pastorate. I would like to put myself in position to teach Religion/Theology at the RA college level...especially since I have been asked to do it so many times for other unacreditted schools. In order to do that I must clear these issues up. While I know I won't be able to teach at that level without my Masters degree...I have to do the first things first in this case. I have many other things I can fall back on to make ends meet till I finish that Masters up.

As to help...Defiance in Ohio is working with me to get things straight financially with Florida Memorial so I can get my transcripts. I do not want to throw away 2 years and a 3.64 g.p.a.

Thank you for your concern.

 

Bill,

I don't think that any cergyperson who has integrity of character would argue with the above statement. Academic degrees/titles alone do not produce effective clergypersons. These "matters of the heart and soul" are indeed central to effective, meaningful and productive ministry. If it were an either/or option, I personally would choose the matters of heart/soul over those of the head. But it isn't an either/or option, nor is this the issue of the original post.

This thread is about the use of degree titles by clergypersons, but more specifically about the credible use of such titles. If a clergyperson has the matters of heart & soul in proper perspective, i.e., after much reflection upon such items as example, ministerial ethics, academic honesty and personal influence, then the use of degree mill credentials would not be a viable option. After all, why would one who fully understands that as a clergyperson one is a representative of Christ, want to use the title "Dr.," knowing full well the degree was bought for $200 via a degree mill? This is the type of behavior the original post addresses, not those who, for whatever reason, choose an unaccredited (but substantive) degree program.

 

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Sounds great!

charis soi,

 

The good news about Triune is that they are honest about their lack of accreditation and are not claiming accreditation through phony agencies. I don't like their statement (to the effect that) if seeking Gospel Ministry most churches are not concerned with accreditation if any as long as the education was a quality education (paraphrased). The opposite is true, that many (nearly all major denominations) want accredited degrees. Except in extraordinary circumstances, a person without one will not be ordained in the UMC, LCMS, ELCA, PCA, PCUSA, etc.

I wish you the best flipkid. I think you are moving in the right direction. When you get to graduate work, if you cannot afford most seminaries then look to foreign opportunites. South Africa has an excellent education system (if the ANC does not ruin it). You can earn distance learning Masters & Doctorates. An example is that at the University of Zululand (a South African State University) you can earn a Doctor of Theology degree for less than 2000 US dollars by research. For slightly more you can find other more prestigious South African Universities. Then follow your desire to teach.

Economically, it sounds like you are going through the issue with clergy that Ann Landers once catagorized as the most underpaid professionals in America. I knew a AOG pastor in the Army who was working in the Ozarks with his accredited MDiv (90 credit hours) and being paid partially in corn meal. He was quite happy to be in the Army.

Good luck flipkid!!

North

 

I agree with you. It was my personally raising and questioning the President of the school of the lack of concern of "gospel churches" over the accreditation issue, overall declining quality of the programs of study, the "bait and switch" statements (from 1990 that they were seeking accreditation which in our minds put them on the same footing as most of the "brick and mortar" religion schools in our immediate area) on accreditation, refusal to stand behind the classes taken by way of transcript, and the agreement of the Dean of the extension center where I attended with my positions with the school that made me persona non grata.

Thanks for the well wishes.

 

Resisting the temptation to flame...

(Oh, my, the fun I could have with this thread . . .)

I was not aware that Russell is affiliated with the Church of God (Cleveland). That actually bumps him up a notch or two in my book. COGC has been a long-time leader in nontraditional education through Lee University (formerly Lee College). (For long-time a.e.d. participants, one of Dennis Huber's many degrees is from Lee.) They have also long been active in ACCESS (the Association of Christian Continuing Education Schools and Seminaries, which is largely made up of RA schools). I don't think of COGC as a "sister organization" of the AOG, but as a distinct denomination with a quite credible reputation. (At least as far as holy rollers go. Yeah, I know, but I had to make a Pentecostal joke somewhere.)

I find fkipkid's comments interesting. On one hand, he says, "I am not ashamed of my [Triune Biblical] education," but on the other, he follows the precedent set by many and is now pursuing RA credentials. (For which, of course, I give him credit.)

But what do I know? I'm one of those about whom, because I'm gay, some people say I "showed no fruit of their salvation walk with their Lord, openly bragged about their lascviousness and still possessed the RA degree."

By the way, here's what I actually wrote in NIFI about Triune Biblical University. This was, of course, current as of the last edition (1994); I would trust that they've gotten rid of their dot matrix printer since then...

TRIUNE BIBLICAL UNIVERSITY
P.O. Box 912
Kelso, Washington 98626
(206) 577-0586

While not claiming to be accredited, Triune's "catalog" consists of fifteen photocopied pages printed on a dot matrix printer. They purport to grant degrees from the associate's through doctoral levels. An interesting side note: they offer five different doctoral titles, all of which are religious in nature. Several of their faculty claim to have earned a Ph.D. from Triune. In their "catalog," however, Triune doesn't purport to offer a Ph.D. (Discernment lesson coming up . . .) That indicates that the State of Washington, which Triune claims has exempted them from licensure, may have told them they could no longer offer secular degree titles such as the Ph.D. They claim to have several extension campuses, the faculty for which is almost entirely homegrown (meaning that they received one or more of their own degrees from Triune), and they do not distinguish between earned and honorary degrees. Despite their lack of an accreditation claim (a refreshing change for a degree mill), this school is Mickey Mouse all the way. (With apologies to the real Mickey Mouse.)

 

Lee University

Yes, I was ordained with the COG in 1986, and earned a BA through Lee University (www.leeuniversity.edu). Lee has an excellent DL program in christian/pastoral ministries, however, 40 of the 130 semester hours must be earned on campus. The 40 hours can be completed at any RA school and transferred to Lee. I also completed a master's degree at the Church of God Theological Seminary (www.cogts.edu), which enjoys both regional and ATS accreditation. But alas, my doctorate was earned at Erskine Theological Seminary (RA/ATS)(www.erskine.edu), the seminary of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. Is there such a thing as a Pentecostal Presbyterian?

The COG is the oldest continuing Pentecostal denomination in the US, being founded in 1886. (www.churchofgod.cc) My reference to a "sister organization" of the Assemblies of God was made because in many areas the AG is more visible and known than the COG. But yes, the COG is a distinct denomination with a credible reputation.

 

Re: Resisting the temptation to flame...

To the things which I can speak of....

1.) I had no idea that you were a student at the particular school of theology that I was referencing in my post...it was my personal experineces with them and their students that turned me away from that school in particular. I am not alone for there are many who will not attend that school for the same reasons that I have outlined...students are ambassadors of the schools they attend...and there was more bad example than good for many people.
2) Once turned away, there were no other RA schools in the field I wanted, in the discipline I wanted, or in the denomination that I serve in the area. To attend one was to relocate and as I have alluded to earlier...the finances were not there to even consider that. To attend the other schools was to be called into question by your church/denomination for ..."having a degree from a Unitarian school, but you want to pastor a Baptist Church?" "Or even better...why go to a school of your oppressor to study the theology of a people who say that their God made you inferior to them and you are nothing more than a slave....3/5 of a person?" (While I am not playing a race card, the fact is this is a very prevalent problem on why some churches have dismissed their pastors even with qualified degrees....because they went to the wrong school...even a RA. That is not just emotion but fact...unpleasant as it is)
3.) Triune became an alternative until I could transfer elsewhere. Even then the school I was going to transfer to (Richmond Virginia Seminary) was not accredited and is another school you decimate in the 1994 edition of your book. I physically attended one of those "extension centers" you talk about in Chase City, Virginia from 1991 - 1997.
4.) I stayed after completing the BA (1991) out of a sense of loyalty to those (in Chase City)who helped me when I literally could not help myself. You don't cut bait on those that have helped you out. If you do you pay for it later.
5.) Since 1997 when I flew out to Washington for myself and saw things for myself...I have talked with them and challenged them to make changes and come up higher in terms of quality, etc...even if they never thought about being accredited. Yes they still have the dot matrix printer but it has been retired now to the trophy case....rofl. These things made me persona non grata but I still share with them via e-mail.
6.) My quest now for a RA has nothing to do with being disatisfied with Triune. It has nothing to do with the opinions of those here in this forum. Since I am upfront about my degrees I have had no problems from others that i come in physical contact about it. My issues with Triune I have already alluded to but we still have a cordial relationship. Rather because I know that my family will be relocating to another state in a couple of years and I may not necessarily be working in the religion field as my primary employment. Especially not upon immediate arrival. My plan is to teach at the RA college level...something that was not in my plans or focus 14 years ago. Therefore my quest is to get that degree since I was only 2 years removed from it anyway so that I can keep my quality of living wage in a reasonable area.

Now as to your opening comments...I could care less about your sexual orientation...that is between you and whoever or whatever you serve...even if what you serve is you...I do not stand in judgement of you as a person because I don't know you...only over the web have I learned of your stature and standing in this field and by reading your book....to pull me into that line of arguement would not be true to this thread...that is also why i did not answer John Bears question...now if you want to debate that personally, fine. E-mail me and we can do that. But I never said that should preclude you from having a RA or anyone else for that matter..you twisted that statement to advocate what....

Finally as you are gay and proud of it...I have unacredited degrees and am proud of it...I know what I put into them to get them...regardless of your assessment from 1994...I don't think it comes close to Harvard or Howard in terms of quality but I am open and honest about it!!!

I think you have done a great work in this field...regardless of your orientation, opinions or if I disagree with it or not...I personally think you could do more good by consulting and helping those sincere institutions that are trying to become legitimate do so as oppossed to tear as many down as possible. At least that is what I try to do with ll the information that I learn here.

HEY!!!! Is it possible that you can appreciate a persons work and worth while not agreeing with everything they say or do?

Even an unacredited degree holder like me?

 

Re: Re: Resisting the temptation to flame...

Of course it is. That's why I chose not to flame - you actually came across as a human being.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in the first paragraph cited. I have never been a student at any school of theology; my degrees are all from secular colleges and universities (B.A. Edison, M.A. Norwich, Ph.D. Union), although I taught at theological schools [Biblical Theological Seminary (RA/ATS) and the Philadelphia College of Bible Graduate School (RA/AABC)]. My comments on Triune, as with most other schools profiled in NIFI, are based on research rather than having experienced them as a student. Just a point of clarification.

 

Re: Re: Re: Resisting the temptation to flame...

Wow!!! Two consecutive positve comments towards little ole' me!!! I am truly honored and blessed!!!

My reference was simply that in my original post I was citing my own personal experiences as a point of reference for why I personally (and some others I know) choose not the go the RA route when it comes to ministry/theology. Thus I was drawing a personal observation between the accredited credentials of the degree holder and the integrityof the same (without calling names) in carrying out those ideals that they were studying and worked so long and so hard for. Or in some cases did not work long and hard, did not attend calss and still got the degree. Now this is in theology and ministry fields only that I was making this reference ...no other subject matter.

Your response that "I'm one of those about whom..." led me to infer from your post that somehow you felt I was including you in that crowd. I was not so that is why I responded in point # 1 of my reply. I also reread your post this morning and saw ...."some people..." It was a long day when I read your first post and I missed that part...so if I apologize for missing that qualifer of your sentiments.

As to your research, again you have done a wonderful job, regardless to whether we all agree or not on every assessment made. I know that your comments on Triune were not from personal experience but research...so again no harm or injury felt. I actually read NIFI in 1999 (obviously after I had finished)and sent a copy to Triune, as well as to the extension where I attended. Thus the beginning of the end of my (and the Deans in that matter) good relationship with Triune in regards to curriculum.

Thanks for the candor.

 

Vladika Russell: Yes. Edward Irving.

 

Thank you, Bishop. Charles Finney as well, although he wasn't as vocal about it.