Degrees and Ministerial Credibility: Church Division Releases Statement

The Division of Education for the denomination with which I am ordained has released the following statement regarding Degrees and Credibility:

"Degrees, in name only, that do not involve serious study and adequate training may not provide credibility for ministry...Conversely, a degree from an unaccredited institution that is devoid of substantive training, or a degree from a fraudulent school selling diplomas in lieu of real education can adversely affect a minister's credibility."

Needless to say I am pleased with the statement, which provides an entry point in addressing bogus degrees.

 

Quick Question

Rev. Rus.

What church are you ordained by?

Michael

 

Re: Quick Question

I believe it's "The Church of What's Happenin' Now."

Okay, so I'm old and remember Flip Wilson. So sue me...



Tom Nixon

 

Broderick:

Church of God (Cleveland, TN), which is a sister organization to the Assemblies of God.


Tom:

I used to be the in the Church of What's Happening Now, until I realized that the devil could not make me do it.

 

Degrees and Ministerial Credibility

Great starting point...true. However I know of too many ministers who have gone to RA schools who did not go to class, could not decently and in some case correctly interpret a biblical text, showed no fruit of their salvation walk with their Lord, openly bragged about their lascviousness and still possessed the RA degree...why? Because they paid for it. So they have educational credibility amomgst their peers, avenue towork with larger churches etc. and they too may be in some cases guilty of fraud as is placed on others who do not go the RA route for whatever reason. Some of these are the reason why I did not go to the closest RA school to where I used to live (90 miles away) I guess you can say one bad apple spoiled the whole bunch in my case...lol.

While men and women who have been serious about the ministry but lacked the financial resources, or have entered into the ministry later in life with families so they can not pick up and relocate and allow their families to suffer so they can get a degree are shunned and put down as frauds. Those who have graduated from RA schools do everything they can to undermine their chances at getting a decent job, church, etc. without knowing why. Many of the ministers I know would go to school if they could afford it...however many can not...not at current prices. Or with their family committments.

I know well the arguement about not being able not to afford it. But that logic does not work when you only have 15.00 left after paying necessary bills to get you through to your next paycheck with no extravegences. It does nt work when the churches that you pastor could care less about Barth or Kierkegard but want to know if you will stick with them even if they act hateful towards you. It does not work when they laugh in your face if you ask them to help you pay for one class to get that elusive RA degree. Surviving one more week takes precedence over making another bill that you can not realistically hope to pay. (Yes we walk by faith...but we are also charged to be faithful stewards over what has already been entrusted to our care)

I have no problem with a state licensed, or a NTS unaccred degree if that person is up front with it. Especially in the field of ministry because as you well know...that is a field that the majority of people that are in it...never planned on going in it...it just happened to them. ( I have not yet truly formed an opinion about other fields) Let the hiring body then investigate the school and debate it's merits or whether they will accept that training. If they still get that opportunity to work and minister, then at least they have been honest and up front about it. There may be very real reasons why they do not have a RA degree. But it is just assumed in many of these posts that all these people are trying to do is to get over on other folks. Yet I have seen some of these same people go on to do great things for the work of the Lord and the glory of God regardless. Some of the ministers doing the most have no degrees from no schools because they did not want to be pulled into the politics of it all...which is worthy of another thread at another time.

Maybe the real reason is some that although they have RA degrees still do not have the favor of the Lord....hence the closed doors and denied opportunites that they bemoan these unqualified credentialed canidates are taking away from them.

Of course you know by now I am a NTS grad from the worse of the worse...according to Name it and Frame It. However I did what I had to do when I had to do it...it was only after having been enrolled for a couple of years and finding out "the truth" about accreditation issues and the like did I question my loyalty to those that had re-opened college doors to me. Eventually I will get my RA...either at Defiance in Ohio, St Augustine's in North Carolina, or CLEP and Independent Study through Florida Memorial in Miami where I started out many years ago. The reason? Because i would like to teach at the collegiate lvel and I know I can not do that where i want to go eventually without my RA. It may take me the next 15 years...not because of time but money, but I will get there. A car accident took me out of school and put me in the financial predicament that I was/am in.

My choices are limited unless I do it online or distance, hence why I am researching these forums. But I am not ashamed of what I have obtained or why.

Well let me prepare for the assault now.

With out God's favor all degrees are worthless

 

Re: Degrees and Ministerial Credibility

Flipkid:

You make some very points, however, none of them invalidate the intent of the original post. It is true that good unaccredited schools exist, many of them offering substantive programs of study. The degrees will have limited utility, but for the bi-vocational pastor, or anyone in a ministry context, these degrees may indeed be beneficial. This is especially true if one is only wanting the degree for ministerial training.

The intention of the original post was regarding schools which have no substantive program of study, yet awards academic degrees. Let me give some cases in point:

1. Unlimited life-experience credit, e.g., 6 hours of credit for each year in ministry, without requiring any type of documentation that academic learning was acquired. After all, one should not get 3 hours of credit for being able to tie their shoe laces or open a canned soda, there should be some type of documentable evidence of a learning experience.

2. Some schools offer doctorates at prices which are a joke: Lake Charles Bible College $400; Northwestern International University $395; American College $199. Surely one would not imagine this as substantive, anymore than buying a Rolex from from a street vendor for $10. No thinking individual would expect legitimacy from such a "school" would they?

3. One school offers the Ph.D. or Th.D. for a ten page report. How intelligent does one have to be to recognize this as less-than-wonderful.

I understand that many who are in ministry do not:

1. Have the finances for massive tuition costs.
2. Cannot relocate or dislocate to "go to school."
3. Many RA degree holders have no passion or call to ministry.

However, none of these arguments are legitimate reasons for going the degree mill route. If the only option a minister has to further his academic/ministerial traing is an unaccredited degree, then by all means "GO FOR IT." But shun the degree mills at all cost.

 

Re: Degrees and Ministerial Credibility

I don't think that earning an academic degree is either a substitute or a prerequisite for following a religious path, or for what you call a person's "salvation walk with their Lord". They are two different things. Many very simple people are people of utmost spirituality, and as you say, many highly educated scholars are a mess.

Nevertheless, the scholars know a lot more than the laymen about the history, doctrines and practices of their tradition. They are familiar with a sample of the thought that previous generations have put into this stuff.

But higher education isn't the only thing required in a good clergyman.

Nor should you be. If your classes have taught you material that's of use to you, they were valuable.

Perhaps the issue here is one of humility and pride. Education is great, wherever we find it. The problems begin when people start calling themselves "Doctor" and start strutting around and preening like peacocks.

That's a problem when anyone does it, and it's only compounded if the degree doesn't really certify the level of education that it seems to. Other people's respect for education is exploited to cause them to defer when perhaps they should not. Pride is a temptation, and when it starts to mislead others it can get ugly.

I admire the modest approach. I respect those who speak quietly and let the content of their remarks demonstrate their authority (if any). People don't need to boast with vanity degrees if they actually know what they are talking about.

That's especially true in religion, I think.

 

Agreed. I would rather a minster go to a quality unaccredited school than a diploma mill or no school at all. One thing that many RA schools are trying to do in that regards is to establish numerous extension centers...but not because of the minisitry sake...because they are losing to much money to all of the diploma mills and unaccredited schools that are operating in the area. But if an unaccredited school is seeking accreditation they usually have to close their extension schools. So who trains those ministers?

Usually the mills and the unaccredited schools that are not trying to be accredited.

It is just that many people do not have the true information and research that the wonderful people in these forums do. They are just trying to go somewhere that they can afford. When they come in contact with somebody that has gone somewhere "different" they want to know all about it. Especially if they do not have to travel far from home to accomplish it.

One of the things I have yet to see discussed is how some of these diploma mills dupe others to do their teach their classes/run their extensions for them. They do not reveal their hand until the "dean" has so invested himself or herself with them that they almost can not pull away with out much damage occuring to everybody concerend. Many times (like me) you would not find out until you had already invested time, effort and money...even if it was not at the same cost of a RA. While I would not reject what I have learned, I have not reccommended that anybody go to school there in many years now. While I maintain a cordial relationship with the school I am persona non grata right about now with them because of my position.

I just looked at a list of those that attended and graduated from the same extension center that I did. All are ministers...none are trying to use their degrees for secular employment...and all lived like myself at least 75 miles away from the nearest RA schools of religion of our denomination. [Virginia Union, Shaw...the others were and most still are still unaccredited even though some are free standing and fully operational campuses] (I know it seems it should not matter but in the first church I served they dismissed the former pastor because he had graduated from the wrong school...Liberty University School of Lifelong Learning)

That too is space for another thread.

 

Re: Re: Degrees and Ministerial Credibility

Nor should you be. If your classes have taught you material that's of use to you, they were valuable.

***Very valuable indeed. I appreciate that.***

Perhaps the issue here is one of humility and pride. Education is great, wherever we find it. The problems begin when people start calling themselves "Doctor" and start strutting around and preening like peacocks.

***I go by Minister or Senior Minister when it refers to my position as a Pastor of a local church. I have not ever been wrapped up on a title. After all many folks call me "Pastor" and don't truly mean it...lol***

"By humility and fear of the Lord are riches and honour and life"

 

Flipkid: "With out God's favor all degrees are worthless."

Amplification appreciated. What is it that God needs to favor? The degree? The school? The holder of the degree? Any two? All three? Other?

It would be of more than passing interest to me to know if there are people who truly believe my degrees are worthless because I do not believe in their God.

John Bear
Honorary President for Life,
Greenwich School of Theology

 

I believe with all that is available in the way of accredited theological education that clergy should have a degree. Having said that, I would rather see a self educated clergyman with no degree than a clergyperson holding a degree mill credential. There are very few unaccredited schools that have credibility (eg of respected schools include Bob Jones U & PCC). Dr. Levicoff lists some others. A Hank Hanegraaff (not a clergyman) looks a lot more credible being self taught than he would if he wandered around with milled Masters & PhD's.

My opinion is that most clergy that have milled degrees do so in order to have the recognition/prestige that comes from having a degree without having to work for it/work as hard for it. Rather than say, I have no formal theological education they can say "I earned a bachelors, Masters, and Doctorate from XZY Theological Seminary". "Accredited??" "No, they don't believe in accreditation" or "Yes, by UKNOWWHO the largest non governmental accreditor".

We should do nothing that can bring discredit on the cause of Christ. When Dr. Russell Morris felt his undergraduate degree might do that , he re did the degree and returned the non credible one.

North

 

Your request for amplification is welcome, but since we are not debating theology in this thread I would gladly respond to you on that in full via e-mail. There is no way I can give it a full treatment here. The Cliff notes version is the holder of the degree...and according to your faith so be it unto you. If you want to discuss it further than that let me know and I will be glad to e-mail you.

 

In the context of the Christian faith now:

Degrees do not make the man or woman a true minister of God, He does! But, He works with what we have. He works with the quality of it. If He calls, He equips.

Accredited programs often are more expensive but offer usually better quality and surpassing utility ; still they may not always be essential. Yet, I much resent mills which grant degrees for work that is not the equivalent of accredited programs.

At 62 , with diabetes and high blood pressure, I forego at this time, gladly, health insurance so that I can afford to pay my tuition. That's my priority.

Done with: BA, ThB, unaccredited; two teaching credentials, MA,MDiv,ThM (RA/ATS) in theology and on to.......

 

Thank you for your response.

With the advance of the Internet, it is doing a lot more to make an accredited theological education more affordable than it has in the past...that is if you still can afford it...lol. For the person that needs $100.00 that is a lot of money. I know some may think it is just being facetious but there are so many ministers that can not afford RA schools without sinking themselves into a pit of debt from which they might never escape. Especially in the ministry when your check is never promised and you are only as good as your last sermon.Espeically when you give so much of yourself in so many ways...

I have no problem with a minister or a layperson who is self taught. If their theology and doctrine are correct...not necessarily popular. I also have no problem with a minister who does not hide the fact that his/her degrees are unaccredited. But that also means many schools who are accreditted in certain areas but not their religion/divinity schools would be in that same boat too. I do not hide it and will not. My constant response to anyone (or church) that does not like where i went to school or why I went there to pay for whatever school they wanted me to go to and I would gladly go there. In 14 years I have had no takers...this includes the three churches that I have served...but they never questioned me because I was upfront with them before they even called me.

Secondly there are not (in some areas) RA schools of religion/theology of same faith/denomination. In the state I used to live, there was only one accredited RA school for African Americans. All others were unaccreditted...from some of the biggest to the little diploma mills that you allude to. If you did not live within a certain proximity to that one school and you wanted an accredited degree you had to relocate. Or go to a school of another faith/doctrine. Now if one goes to another school they may have an accredited degree, but then have to justify why they went to a Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist. Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, etc. school. Again that is another much larger issue. Some churches have "issues" if you do not go to their denominational school.

Like Dr. Morris, when and if one feels that way, then that is the right course of action. I applaud and respect his actions. However only each individual can judge that issue for themselves. Certainly my views have changed over the years, so that is entirely possible that I may turn my non credible as you call them degrees in one day. My never ending pursuit of a RA degree rest on future employment teaching at the college level and not viability over ministry concerns.

My final issue (at least for tonight) is that I do not like to see men and women who were sincere in their quest to throw away work that they actually did. That is what brought me to these forums in the first place...to try to help others not to go through what I have gone through.

 

John, I pretty much knew that you didn't believe in God. Nonetheless, I am disappointed to hear it. Ironically, I too used to be an atheist.

 

Flipkid,

You stated that you are a graduate of NTS. What is NTS? When did you attend and what degree(s) did you earn?

 

I certainly can't speak for Flipkid, but this stuff makes sense to me.

This thread is about use of degree titles by clergy. I don't think that formal higher education is all that it takes to become a good clergyman. There are matters of the heart and soul, which might be even more important than those of the head.

We can all interpret the phrase "God's favor" in whatever way is consistent with our particular beliefs. Christians are very big on grace. So are those who faithfully recite the nembutsu as an act of gratitude for Amida's compassion. The Muslims place great store on the will of God. Even less theistic Advaitists or Zen practitioners could interpret it as meaning atunement to the true nature of reality or something. (That's how I'd interpret it myself.)

I would argue that *if your goal is to become a Christian clergyman*, then yes, all the degrees in the world *are* worthless (for that purpose) if you don't believe in their God. That's not to say that your degrees might not be good preparation for becoming a physicist, an accountant or anything else. For that matter, you could become a scholar in academic religious studies, where many people study religions that are not their own.

But a Christian religious vocation? More than a degree is needed. The same is true for any real practitioner of any religious path, I think.

 

God does not call the qualified, but qualifies the called. This is at the thrust of my favor of God quote that Mr. Bear questioned me on....of course I must deal with it in the context of christian faith because that is what I believe.

I too resent mills, but I am sorrowful for the innocents that are being misled out there. The one thing that is clear that majority of those in these forums think (by way of reading posts only) that everybody that attends a diploma mill or a sub standard unaccredited school do it with malovent purposes..ie to keep an accreditted degreed person from getting a job, or to brag that they are Rev. Dr. That there is no way that they could not know that it was a fraud and a sham and has incorporated in 7 states and counting...lol. Having been out there, and running into them everyday I know that is not true in all cases. Some, sure...many...probable..but all...definatley not. Who speaks for them? I guess I do..and take the flack too.

Sir, I admire your choice of priorities at this time in your life. Although I am 38 I am too forgoing health insurance, cable, DISH TV, getting a better running car, car repairs so that I can clear up my past debt and get my RA for my families future. Because now that is one of my priorities, whereas 14 years ago it was not. And unlike some popular wordly opinions as a minister and his/her salary I only make enough to keep the lights on and the roof over my head, so i have to cut things out to make it work. No educational fund for me...that is what they used to run the last one out of town...rofl.

 

Thank you. I couldn't have said it much better myself

 

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I suppose if God supports your RA aspirations it will happen. You say God qualifies the called, right? Why do you want RA? Have you looked into some sort of help by the school itself?