Countin' churches...

"JC"? Oh, Lerner, ha!

Yes, Jesus Christ was resurrected. However, God did have to see Him suffer in excruciating pain and literally die!

 

Learner,

Although it is true that Christians believe that Jesus Christ resurrected two days after he died, it was not his death that counted as his sacrifice for humanity. Jesus endured some of the worse torture and humiliation prior to his death. It could not have been easier for the Father to witness the suffering of his only child – while having the power to stop it – and let everything happen. I know that when we – human beings - see a loved one under tremendous suffering, we see death as a relief for that person, even if it means our own affliction. Furthermore, God did not only bring his Son back to life, but gave a chance to the entire human race to have eternal life. Therefore, it is my sincere belief that even if we can not fully grasp God’s plan for humanity, God understands human suffering just fine.

Godspeed!

 

There is a huge difference between God wanting us to suffer and His allowing us to suffer. I will grant you pain is God's work--in a sense that He made us able to feel it--but not tragedy. Tragedy is not God's work, it is man's work.

 

And for those of us who believe in the sovereignty of God, we just trust Him. I tell my congregation that within the context of faith is trusting His wisdom and judgment.

If we believe in an Almighty Sovereign God, accept the limits and finalities of life as well as our own limitations, we simply move on.

 

Very articulately stated. This is similar to North's quote in his sig line from, I believe, Cardinal Newman.

 

Looks interesting, Jack.

For me the issue is not that we differ in our theological persuasions, it's about the cold, cruel attacks many of us take.

We've seen these right here on Degree Info. Those of us of faith are referred to as ignorant, superstitious, etc.

Yet, the vast majority of us never stoop to such attack on those who disagree. We don't mock the atheists, the deists, the pantheists, or the polytheists. We live and let live and wish the same for ourselves.

I have an uncle who is nearly an atheist and constantly criticises me. He says I am in the ministry for the money (Yea, right!) and tell lies to my congregation so I will keep getting paid. He argues I know what I am teaching and preaching are not true.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Countin' churches...

I think the point might be that some churches (though not necessarily all) tend to use eventual reward in an afterlife as an excuse to discourage the fight for social justice in this world.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Countin' churches...

Good point, Ted, and it depends a great deal on what millennial perspective each person, church, and/or denomination has.

 

You know, I'm not sure what exactly it was that was responsible for the West Virginia mining disaster. But not all mining disasters are the fault of some grumpy single parent in the sky who refiused to fget up off his hind end and fly down here to stop a mining disaster in progress. And, believe it or not, not all mining disasters are the result of selfish greedy running dogs of capitalism cutting corners on safety with absolute disregard for the lives of their workers. But I was recently talking to a fellow from Kentucky and he was pointing out that strip mining would be by far the best for ventilation systems, which are key to worker safety in mines. But yet the liberal intellectual crowd thinks that the poor mountain might look ugly after it was strip mined, so that should trump worker safety issues, even though the liberals are friends to the workers.

 

Good post and it borders on the political which I have decided not to participate in anymore. However, some additional points need to be made.

Very few, I say very few, so-called environmentalists are sincere and honest and actually practice what they preach.

For instance, I know a strong Democratic couple who is very anti-Bush and pro-environment (as if the rest of us are anti-environment). They constantly condemn Bush and his environmental record (better than Clinton, by the way).

Yet, they pollute the air with all their farm machinery, have cleared land of beautiful trees for more crop-yielding acreage, and use harmful chemicals during farming season.

Many pro-environment entertainers live in multi-story homes (think of the energy it takes to heat and cool these babies), drive gas guzzlers, and have private jets. Think of all the energy wasted to reshoot movie and television scenes involving autos because the actors are under the influence.

Think about "Mr. Environment," Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., who is opposing windmills near his home yet travels the country in his private jet preaching using alternative energy.

How many "pro-environmentalists" on this board actually DO NOT WASTE energy while preaching conservation? Very few, I am sure. No? Do you speed?

 

Might I add that very few, I say very few, so-called christians are sincere and honest and actually practice what they preach.

My point? Shrug.

Just offering another perspective.

 

I seem to get along just fine! The problems mention just need to be figured out for the individual facing the problem. The human condition is what we as organisms make of it just as in nature.

 

Perhaps.

 

Carl,

Your appeals to "rationalism" as an antithesis to religion suffers greatly when you make statements that display the kinds of less-than-rational thought that you criticize in those of faith:

You made a 10 mile trip, saw something that you label a "Waco Style compound", conclude that it must be "wacked out" and then make the irrational extrapolation that there is one such compound "every 10 miles or so". Since you label it "Waco Style", are you claiming that it houses a Branch Davidian group with a David Koresh figure? Do you really know this to be true? Other than the physical appearance of the building, do you have any idea at all what goes on inside?

When you put this type of thinking out as a viable alternative to a faith-based orientation, you should not be surprised when people are not eager to jump on that band wagon.

Both you and I disdain "those religious charlatans who hold this population in fear, suffering, and ignorance rather than helping the poor hardworking people of this small state advance into the 21st century as part of a competitive global workforce" However, you seem to have nothing good to say about those non-religious charlatains who provide disaster relief, feed third-world nations, run hospitals and operate schools and universities to counteract the poverty and ignorance that we mutually disdain.

So the poor folks of West Virginia "still vote Republican" and you take this as an obvious evidence of their ignorance and poverty. While it is true that the majority of West Virginia went with Bush over Kerry and Gore, the state went with Clinton during both of his terms. Over 2/3 of the West Virginia legislature is Democrat. All of the top state elected officials (except the Secretary of State) are Democrats. Still want to argue that voting for Republicans is the result of too many churches in West Virginia?

I respect your opinion (though I disagree with it), but your posts on this thread appear to exhibit the same lack of rational thought that you ascribe to religion. Compared to many of your more reasonable posts in the past, this is disappointing.

 

Not only what you said, Dr. Pina, but West Virginia has had 19 Democratic governors with the last one being about as corrupt as any in its history; has had 21 U.S. Democratic Senators, one of which held membership in the KKK; and West Virginia has voted Democratic in five of the last eight Presidential elections.

 

I don't speed now, since I no longer have a driver's license. However, I have been known to speed back when I did have a driver's license, which might explain why I don't have a driver's license any more. I'm not real sure whether I'm a liberal any more, as I have concluded that there is the liberal bag of shyte and the conservative bag of shyte and one must whiff through a lot of shyte to get to a little shinola. At any rate, even back when I was clearly a liberal, environmentalism was the liberal issue of lowest importance to me, as I am the son of a retired uranium mining executive.

 

I only read "Christianity in Crisis"
He states that a "pseudo-Christian" group like the word-faith movement, would claim to be Christian but deny one or more of the essential doctrines of historic Christianity.

Why so many movements? so many cults?

Verse of the Day
Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the Lord God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is. Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts.

Amos 5:14-15/NIV
Verseoftheday.com
Learner

 

Yet, the quality of life of most people improves substantially after they find something to believe in. See, when someone joins a religious organization and lives up to the standards imposed by a strict set of beliefs that person stops any self destructive behavior they may have previously been engaged in. Therefore, improving his or her own quality of life and that of his or her family.

Why so many brands of toothpaste? Or soap? It is only human nature to want choices. Do you think that only Christians are fractioned in different groups? Of course not. There are lots of different groups in all religions. Muslims are divided in fundamentalists and liberal groups and Jewish have Orthodox and Non-Orthodox groups, etc.

Take care and Godspeed!

 

I have no problem

I have no problem with tax exemption for churches until they start becoming economic enterprises. The mega-church has, in many cases, become multi-million dollar economic enterprises which compete with local businesses and in that situation they sould become taxed like everyone else. The Economist had a big article last week on the growth of mega-churches in the USA....