Columbia Southern University dropping DBA

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by siersema, Mar 14, 2014.

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  1. siersema

    siersema Member

  2. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    They should continue to offer DBA, just drop SOUTHERN in the name. COLUMBIA SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY.:scratchchin:
     
  3. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    TEKMAN: "... just drop SOUTHERN in the name. COLUMBIA SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY..."

    John: I used to wonder about that. If a new school called itself "Harvard Southern University" or "Stanford Southern University," the lawyers would be on the doorstep the next morning. I dimly recall that when Columbia Pacific* University was being developed, they notified Columbia University as a courtesy and no one objected.
    _________
    * the only university named after a plane crash
     
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The "Harvard" and "Stanford" names are unique. But the "Columbia" name has been long been used by other institutions of higher education. So maybe Columbia has no legal basis for claiming exclusivity.

    For example, there is not just Columbia Southern University -- there is currently a "Columbia College" in South Carolina, and another in Missouri, and another in California, and another in Alberta. There's also a "Columbia College Chicago" and a "Columbia College Hollywood". The one in South Carolina has been using the "Columbia" name since 1854.

    Another Ivy League school, Cornell University, isn't thrilled about the existence of Cornell College in Iowa. But Cornell College has been using the name since 1857, so they can actually claim precedence over Cornell University (est. 1865).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2014
  5. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    Per its website, the DBA is the only doctoral program offered by CSU. I wonder why CSU is dropping the DBA.

    1. Low enrollment?
    2. Not financially sustainable?
    3. Preparing to pursue a different type of accreditation?
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    According to College Navigator, Columbia Southern University issued a total of 1,775 business-related degrees in 2011-12.
    Breakdown by degree level was as follows:

    137 Associate's degrees
    723 Bachelor's degrees
    912 Master's degrees
    3 Doctoral degrees

    Draw your own conclusions.
     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The doctorate is so much different from the bachelor's and master's, especially how DETC-accredited schools go about their methodology. The dissertation process is unique and labor-intensive. You can't just pack up a course in a box and send it out (or the online equivalent). Not only that, you have to maintain a network of faculty members from yours or other schools in order to examine each dissertation, along with your own advisors for the students. It's just a completely different ballgame, no matter how low or high the enrollments are.
     
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This makes sense, what is the value of a DETC DBA other than putting 3 letters in your business cards? You cannot teach with, you cannot use it for positions where the doctorate is required (e.g. consulting positions at the big 3, VIP positions, etc). What is the point?
     
  9. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Is there any reason DETC or other National Accreditation Agencies do not offer Ph.D instead professional Doctorate?
     
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Their "scope of recognition" from the US Dept. of Education only includes "professional doctorates" -- not "research doctorates".
    For example, the USDoE lists the following scope for DETC:

     
  11. rmm0484

    rmm0484 Member

    COMPLETIONS (NUMBER OF AWARDS CONFERRED) 2011-2012

    PROGRAM/ BACHELOR/ MASTER/ DOCTOR/ Total enrollment
    Capella/ 756 / 4,348/ 810 / 35,754
    Northcenrtral/ 111 / 538 / 252 / 9,252
    Grand Canyon / 4,330 /6,385 / 11 / 48,650
    UOP Online / 32,432 /18,602/ 524 / 256,402* (Includes Associates)
    Taft / 0 / 7 / 45 / 666
    Trident / 1,485/ 1,812 / 40 / 6,985
    Aspen / 29 / 199 / 0/ 1,189
    Jones International/ 98 / 692 / 38 / 3,196
    Walden / 711 /5,468/ 545/ 50,209
     
  12. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    However, the same U.S. Department of Education classifies DBAs and EdDs as research doctorates "equivalent in content and level to the Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree."

    http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/doctorate.doc

    The USDoE does not have a classification called "Professional Doctorate." There are "First Professional Degrees" and "Research Doctorates"

    Structure of U.S. Education
     
  13. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    According to the cited document, the DBA and EdD are: "frequently awarded research doctorate degree titles accepted by the National Science Foundation (NSF) as representing degrees equivalent in content and level to the Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree."

    Now presumably the USDoE thinks this classification has some relevance, since they are citing it in one of their own documents. But technically, it appears to be an NSF classification, rather than a USDoE classication.

    Well, they apparently do far as DETC is concerned. Their "scope of recognition" for DETC, as published in their online list of "Regional and National Institutional Accrediting Agencies", uses the term explicitly:

     
  14. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    DETC itself, in the "DETC Accreditation Handbook 2014" indicates that its scope is limited to "Professional Doctoral Degrees", defined as follows:

    Note that DETC also accredits JD degrees (Concord, Taft), perhaps under a "special waiver".

    The DETC Accreditation Handbook states that: "In 2011, the IPEDS survey discontinued the use of the term “First Professional” degrees in favor of “Doctor’s degree — professional practice.”
     
  15. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    I believe DETC standards still count JDs as "first professional degrees" and treat as a separate category from "professional doctoral degrees," in spite of the usage change by IPEDS they describe in that footnote. Two paragraphs above that block quote on "professional doctoral degrees:"

     
  16. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    It appears that you are correct. On pages 6-7 of the same document, DETC presents detailed "degree requirements" for different degree types: these include associate, baccalaureate, master's, first professional, and professional doctoral degrees. And the last two are clearly distinct.

    The JD seems fully consistent with DETC's "first professional degree" category (although the JD is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the document). For example, a "first professional degree" does not require a dissertation or research project, while a "professional doctoral degree" does. The JD does not require a dissertation, so it would fall into the "first professional degree" category, and would therefore not be included on DETC's list of "professional doctoral degrees", as cited in Post #14 above.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2014
  17. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    To each of your objections:
    1. Personal fulfillment;
    2. You could probably teach at some DETC schools;
    3. It might be useful in certain niche fields, or geographic areas where the DBA population is low.
    4. Possibly marginally useful for internal advancement/career maintenance, especially in companies fitting #3 above. The Canadian gent who got his DBA through California Southern comes to mind-- he's a VP at some company up North.

    And to add to all that-- you can throw the three letters around at your whim to boost your perceived expertise. Speaking engagements? Book cover liners? TV news appearances? Local elections?
     
  18. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    TONY:

    However, the same U.S. Department of Education classifies DBAs and EdDs as research doctorates "equivalent in content and level to the Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree."

    CALDOG:

    According to the cited document, the DBA and EdD are: "frequently awarded research doctorate degree titles accepted by the National Science Foundation (NSF) as representing degrees equivalent in content and level to the Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree."

    Now presumably the USDoE thinks this classification has some relevance, since they are citing it in one of their own documents. But technically, it appears to be an NSF classification, rather than a USDoE classication.

    TONY:

    The reason that the NSF is mentioned is that the NSF serves as the lead agency of the six (including the US DoE) the produces the annual Survey of Earned Doctorates. The Research Doctorate Document is part of the US DoE’s “Structure of U.S. Education” site (https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-structure-us.html) Where there are documents defining “Associate Degrees,” “Bachelor’s Degrees,” “Master’s Degrees,“ “First Professional Degrees,” “Intermediate Graduate Qualifications” (i.e. 6-year degrees) and “Research Doctorate Degrees.”



    TONY:

    The USDoE does not have a classification called "Professional Doctorate."

    CALDOG:

    Well, they apparently do far as DETC is concerned. Their "scope of recognition" for DETC, as published in their online list of "Regional and National Institutional Accrediting Agencies", uses the term explicitly:

    Distance Education and Training Council, Accrediting Commission

    Scope of recognition: the accreditation of postsecondary institutions in the United States that offer degree and/or non-degree programs primarily by the distance or correspondence education method up to and including the professional doctoral degree

    TONY:

    Yes, a search of the U.S. Department of Education site is very instructive. Prior to 2006, DETC’s recognition was up to the “first professional degree.” In 2006, the wording “first professional degree” was requested to be changed to “professional doctoral degree;” as part a list of recommendations for 15 accrediting bodies sent to the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity (NACIQI). The definition of “professional doctoral degree” was not included in the meeting minutes. In fact, the only mention of “professional doctoral degree” on the entire Ed.Gov site are quotes of DETC’s scope and one document of the minutes of the NACIQI where ACICS petitioned for the same recognition and was denied.



    CALDOG:

    The DETC Accreditation Handbook states that: "In 2011, the IPEDS survey discontinued the use of the term “First Professional” degrees in favor of “Doctor’s degree — professional practice.”

    TONY:

    You are absolutely right and here is where the U.S. DoE makes my case. IPEDS publishes a glossary found at The Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System - Glossary. If you search the glossary, you will find these two revealing definitions:

    Doctor’s degree-professional practice: A doctor's degree that is conferred upon completion of a program providing the knowledge and skills for the recognition, credential, or license required for professional practice. The degree is awarded after a period of study such that the total time to the degree, including both pre-professional and professional preparation, equals at least six full-time equivalent academic years. Some of these degrees were formerly classified as first-professional and may include: Chiropractic (D.C. or D.C.M.); Dentistry (D.D.S. or D.M.D.); Law (J.D.); Medicine (M.D.); Optometry (O.D.); Osteopathic Medicine (D.O); Pharmacy (Pharm.D.); Podiatry (D.P.M., Pod.D., D.P.); or, Veterinary Medicine (D.V.M.), and others, as designated by the awarding institution.

    Doctor’s degree-research/scholarship: A Ph.D. or other doctor's degree that requires advanced work beyond the master's level, including the preparation and defense of a dissertation based on original research, or the planning and execution of an original project demonstrating substantial artistic or scholarly achievement. Some examples of this type of degree may include Ed.D., D.M.A., D.B.A., D.Sc., D.A., or D.M, and others, as designated by the awarding institution.

    There is NO definition anywhere from the U.S. DoE that I can find for a “professional doctorate” that includes the D.B.A. and Ed.D. but excludes the Ph.D. The DETC situation appears to be a singular case, where one hand of the U.S. DoE does not know what the other hand is doing.

    None of the regional accrediting agencies distinguish between the Ph.D. in business and the Doctor of Business Administration degree (D.B.A.). Neither do the AACSB, IACBE or ACBSP. My own research into over 100 doctoral programs accredited by the latter three agencies yielded not significant differences between the Ph.D. and D.B.A. To call one “research” and the other “professional” means little.

    This is not meant to disparage the DETC or to say that DETC schools should not be allowed to offer doctoral degrees. The DETC was brilliant in its approach. I am just saying that DETC’s scope of authority is based on a classification that has not been defined by the US DoE. According to the DoE in its Structure of U.D. Education and its IPEDS definition, the Ph.D., Ed.D. and D.B.A. are all research doctorates. So, there is no reason why the DETC is authorized to accredit D.B.A. and Ed.D. programs and not Ph.D.s.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2014
  19. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I also have nothing whatsoever against Columbia Southern (in fact, I am working with a CSU official on an articulation agreement). I just wish that the US DoE would be consistent. If teh DETC can award doctorates, let them award doctorates without having to create non-existent categories. It would reduce a lot of confusion--but might result in fewer Degreeinfo discussions :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2014
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The distinction that should have been made would have been the one between academic/research doctorates and professional doctorates. In the U.S., the EdD and the DBA are typically research doctorates, virtually indistinguishable from Ph.D. degrees in the same subjects. But professional doctorates--focused on advancing practice or on teaching subjects--are an entirely different affair. I see no reason why DETC's (and the same with ACICS) limit is where it is. Tony, who holds an EdD, has made it clear there's no difference between it and a Ph.D. I, holding a Ph.D. in higher education, concur.
     

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