Columbia Evangelical Seminary

Is Columbia Evangelical Seminary CES a legitimate unaccredited seminary or is it a degree mill?

 

You'll get conflicting answers on this point, but I'm absolutely confident that it's the former. Rick is a good egg and, more importantly, a very public figure in distance learning; if he were selling degrees, we would know it by now.


Cheers,

 

Daniel,
My personal view is that it is somewhere in between.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to discuss this topic here though. A couple of weeks ago we were discussing Walston's dissertation which he has posted online (a very interesting and pointed discussion, BTW) and it was deleted for some unknown reason.

 

Let me echo Tom's comments. Ric seems like a decent guy, very accessible, and I enjoy his *Coffee Talks* on the CES site. As for the school, I do not think it is a mill but whether it is up to ATS standards is another matter (I honestly do not know). Levicoff had some concerns at one point.

What sort of degree are you looking for? I ask because it is possible to do a Th.D. (D.Th) through South African Universities at a distance. One for instance is around $2000 for the entire program and is research based (totally distance learning). This degree may have better utility for you.

My own feeling is that unaccredited degrees are a last resort and in many cases from a financial point and convenience point unnecessary these days.

So, if you like post what sort of credential you are looking for any you may get some helpful advice.

North

 

My guess would be that it's simply not accessible via a search (as the search engine has been known to be flaky on occasion).


Cheers,

 

I second North--while I don't believe CES is a degree mill by any means, it certainly is unaccredited, and its degrees would not be as widely useful as those offered by accredited schools.


Cheers,

 

The discussion on Ric Walston's doctoral thesis was moved to the "Off Topic Discussions" and may be found here:

http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4743&highlight=Walston

Craig

 

Rick Josh Walston has been a friend for about 15 years now.

I am unqualified to comment on the academic or theological quality of his school, but I am absolutely convinced that he is honest and sincere in what he is doing.

And he has done truly good works, in my opinion, helping expose, in his book and other writings, those "Bible schools" who claim accreditation from dreadful agencies such as ACI and IAC. "Shame!" he thunders, in his write-ups of them, in Walston's Guide.

 

I agree, John. Ric makes no pretense about CES's accreditation, in fact, he openly informs the prospective student that the school is not accredited. Like all unaccredited degrees, a CES degree will not have the utility of its RA counterpart. But having seen some of the work of CES students (James White in particular), I would not think of CES as a degree mill.

 

REASON FOR?

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I also have no doubt of Dr Walston's sincerity. The thought does , however,occur that given the many distance ed degree programs in Bible/Theology which are accredited and in view of the greater utility such accreditation affords, what goals would one wish to meet by operating such an unaccredited school as CES. As Levicoff has informed on another thread (if I got this right) Walter Martin well known for his "expose "of what he deemed to be cults also has a doc from an unaccredited school (Calif Coast?). Both Martin and White are well known, effective (from the evangelical perspective) apologists. Also, Zodhiates known for his edition of the Bible has an unaccredited ThD. Also Tim La Haye ,my pastor in bygone days, has no accredted degree (I think!)! Did their schools make them such successes? Should prospective students be directed to unaccredited schools because occasionally their grads become renouned? Yet both White and Martin have been shredded by those whom they "attack" because they have unaccredited doctorates. And I have found Dr La Haye at times wanting in exegetical prowess (just me). . Yet my hunch is that 95+% of the time such men have no occasion to defend their unaccredited degree! If respectabilty ,though,is an effect partially of accreditation, and church leaders need to be respectable, then exactly what is the function of non accredited schools which intend to train church leaders? And is Dr Walston's school rendered more suitable because of his undisputed personableness and sincerity and his honesty as to the unaccredited status of CES? These are questions I wrestle with and are not a gaunlet thrown down as a challenge!

 

Re: REASON FOR?

Thiss is off the topic, but I've always wondered: What's the deal with William Martin? Kingdom of the Cults is an embodiment of the old Bob Dylan line "don't criticize what you don't understand"; it's one long rant, resting on a nonstandard (and, to my mind, misleading) definition of "cult," divided into a bunch of awkward, cereal-box quality denominational profiles. At least Larson's Book of Cults has entertainment value, but Kingdom of the Cults has all the finesse and humble self-criticism of a sledgehammer.


Cheers,

 

Re: REASON FOR?

My post was in regard to the original question, Bill, which was "Is CES a degree mill."

As stated in another thread the definition of a degree mill is somewhat subjective, however, my own opinion is that it is a degree for money context, or requirements so minimal as to be a joke, e.g., a Ph.D. for a 5 page dissertation.

In this regard CES does appear a sincere effort at offering an academic program with substance and rigor. Utility? Yes, it will be limited. But again, I don't see it as a degree mill.

 

Re: Re: REASON FOR?

Come now, Tom. You're just annoyed because Kingdom of the Cults calls Unitarianism a cult.

 

Re: Re: Re: REASON FOR?

And I'm in good company, sharing that distinction with Christian Science, Mormonism, Zen Buddhism (!), and the Baha'i Faith. Dontcha get the feeling that he's using the word "cult" just a little too broadly?


Cheers,

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: REASON FOR?

One thing is for sure, Martin isn't calling anything a cult now.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: REASON FOR?

Gaaaahhhh. Not only did I not know he died in 1989, but I got his first name wrong to boot--it's Walter, not William. It's been a few months since I took to Kingdom of the Cults, you understand, so the details are a little fuzzy.

Anyway, my basic attitude towards calling alternative religious movements cults across-the-board is about the same as my basic attitude towards calling alternative political movements communist or Nazi across the board--if we're trying to get to the truth, the best thing we can do is stick to clear and non-inflammatory language. Calling Zen Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith cults is ridiculous (I've known many Baha'is, and while it certainly does have its own flavor, it is most emphatically not a cult; it is, to my way of thinking, the youngest major world religion, and should be taken seriously); and as far as Unitarianism goes, well, about half of them don't even believe in God. One UU minister I know once referred to UU leadership as an exercise in herding cats. UUism is many things, but a cult it ain't.


Cheers,

 

Re: Re: REASON FOR?

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Russell:

I understand the context of your post. I guess, I still wonder why. It is not as though CES represents some rare dogma no where else preserved;it fills no vacancy at all that I am aware of .So I just wonder why.

Tom:

I think both Walston and White write from narrow viewpoints. So does La Haye. While I personally believe the test of doctrine which purports to be Christian should be the autographa of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as interpreted historically and grammatically, I don't call all those who disagree with me cultists. They simply are misinformed (hee,hee)

 

Re: REASON FOR?

Greetings Bill!

Tim LaHaye (now very wealthy thanks to his Left behind Series) lists a Doctor of Ministry degree from Western Theological Seminary.

I believe Zodhiates Th.D. is from Luther Rice *BUT* prior to LRS receiving accreditation. This is the case with Charles Stanley as well.

I agree with your remark about Ric in that whether or not he is a great guy and has integrity has no bearing on the quality of his school. I do not think it is a mill but I cannot assess it's quality in terms of equivalent with ATS or even UNIZUL.

As for White. White is a bright guy and I really have no idea why he did not follow in his menor's (Walston) footsteps and complete a research Ph.D. from PUCHE. With White's writing and research ability it would seem to be a breeze for him. Because of White's CES Th.D. he constantly takes heat rounds in straw man arguments over his credentials from Catholics and Mormons whom he tries to take on in his Apologetic ministry.

In my opinion Bill, you have taken the better step which is to attempt to achieve a GAAP Th.D. People may criticize the school but it is unquestionably a GAAP doctorate from a country with a very reputable education system.

North

 

Re: Re: Re: REASON FOR?

1. The original poster posed the question Is CES a degree mill?

2. I made a general reference, a position also held by John Bear, suggesting that Ric Walston is not a scam artist hawking degrees for money.

3. Would I enroll at CES? No! Nor would I enroll at Cal Coast, but I do not think either are blatant degree mills.

Why? I guess I just don't.

 

Hi North

Tim La Haye preached the sermon which was the vehicle for my conversion in '59. He at that time had his BA from Bob Jones only!. He worked hard on his sermons and also allowed me to speak there at Scott Memorial Baptist a couple of times. I'll try to research the D. Min from Western but I'll be very surprised were that correct..still I knew Tim a long time ago. Are you sure it's not an honorary doc? Perhaps he did go on for more ed. Yes Zodhiates graduated prior to the accred of LR. I believe White is sharp too, but an accredited doc would silence some heat he takes.

As to Unizul and me you did me a great service pointing me to SA. Here's the thing about dissertation only docs. The dissertation will have to satisfy my aspiration to do my best and meet my own standards as well those of the UZ committee. I do worry a little that as I see so clearly what I want to do in this dissertation (which I think has not been done before) and because I have such little doubt that I can do it well, that maybe the complexity and enormity of the task is just not by me yet perceived correctly! I recall really struggling with the ThM thesis but now I just feel I can walk all over this dissertation thing. Of course then in the MDiv, ThM I worked full time but now half time so I've more energy (or more senility?) I consider the MDiv, ThM coursework sufficient background to justify the thesis only model. I have about finished the proposal but have not yet submitted it. I'm charged and ready to go!

As to CES, I really wish (because I know there's an answer) that someone would explain to me why someone who acknowledges that accredited is better would wish to be president of an unaccredited seminary. I think I would always want to talk prospective students out of signing on and would take pains to point them to accredited DL programs. I just must be missing something. Maybe Ric is shooting for accreditation and that is cause to continue? Maybe he enrolls students who cannot qualify for RA institutions? Just don't know! But I too doubt that CES gives away degrees, it just does not fit Ric's persona.