Collusion is a Crime

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by sanantone, Dec 14, 2018.

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  1. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  3. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Actually it's not.

    Once again "collusion" is not a crime. Cooperating with others isn't criminal unless it's done in furtherance of a crime. That's when it turns into criminal conspiracy. Absent a crime, it's just what everyone does in everyday life.

    CNN cites 18 USC 201, the statute against bribery of public officials. The word "collude" only appears there twice. The first addresses those doing the bribing, the second the public officials receiving bribes. The wording in that one (the one CNN refers to) is...

    "(2)(B) being influenced to commit or aid in committing, or to collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the commission of any fraud, on the United States".

    So in this text "collusion" only becomes a crime when it is done in furtherance of fraud against the United States.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201
     
  4. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Isn't that what the investigation is about? It's not simply about collusion. It's about collusion to commit a crime against the U.S.
     
  5. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Right, that's my point. So contrary to CNN's fake news and this thread's subject line, collusion isn't a crime (except in very specific conditions in antitrust law).

    That's criminal conspiracy.

    One would have to show that some crime against the United States has actually been committed. That's the pivot around which everything revolves. Then one would have to show that the individual being accused was a in fact a conspirator in the commission of that crime.

    In the case of this particular bribery statute 18 USC 201, one would also have to show that something of value changed hands to induce the public official to participate in the alleged fraud against the United States. If one wants to apply this to the current President of the United States, one would also have to show that these acts occurred after November 2016, since it only applies to public officials and those selected to be public officials.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  6. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    In this case it’s a distinction without a difference. When he gets impeached the charges will likely include campaign finance fraud and money laundering as well so some fine distinction between collusion and criminal conspiracy will hardly matter.
     
  7. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    CNN's article is in response to those who keep saying that collusion isn't a crime, but no one ever said that simply colluding is a crime. It is obvious that any talk of collusion involves colluding to commit illegal activities, and it shouldn't have to be spelled out. But, the president is an idiot who constantly gets things wrong, and his followers believe anything he says even though he's constantly lying. To collude is to conspire. Mental acrobatics won't change that. Conspiracy, alone, isn't a crime either. You have to conspire to do something unlawful for it to be a crime.

    Any criminal act is a wrong against the government as opposed to private parties in civil matters. So, if you colluded to defraud the federal government or to accept a bribe, you've committed a crime against the U.S.
     
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  10. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    Why is it taking so long to have those collusion charges laid? I should not be that difficult to find out what putin and trump colluded together to win the u.s presidency. Is collusion a crime? It depends on if you think left or right - so will be the eventual judge.
     
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    No. It will depend on the prescribed legal process and a Federal Grand Jury, the Department of Justice and a Federal Judge.
     
    Phdtobe likes this.
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  13. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    Yes but the political leaning of judges are especially important in the USA -Are the judges liberal, or are the judges conservatives ? If the political leanings of judges were not important, then RBG won’t have been hearing cases on her geriatric bed waiting for Thump to be kicked out of office.
    ==
    A grand jury almost always return a recommendation to presecute, because it only hears one side of the argument, that of the prosecutor.
     
  14. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Ok. It’s an interesting theory. No facts, just vague speculation, but interesting. As events unfold you can keep me updated about which judges are biased by their political “leanings” and how this has affected their judgements.
     
  15. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    Actually it is not a theory or vague speculation. It is the current reality in the USA. On the same evidence and facts, Democratic appointed judges will render a different opinion from that of Republican appointed judges. I did not invented the phrase “swing judge”, for those rare judges who may not be political, 100%. Also, in the usa, one can pick a court circuit that shares ones political worldview to get a desirable result, such a 9th versus 5th circuit. Anyway, the evidence of political bias is incontrovertible.
     
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    OK, so like I said, when the rulings come down you can point out to me the political nature of the verdicts. Personally, I believe that the evidence will be so clear that even Brett Kavanaugh will vote against him.
     
    Bill Huffman likes this.
  17. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I think it's important to highlight this.

    Paul Manafort's lawyers, through a PDF malfunction, revealed this week that Special Counsel Robert Mueller has evidence that Manafort, when he served as Trump's campaign chairman, shared internal campaign polling data with an associate believed to be a Russian intelligence asset.
     
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  19. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  20. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

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