Charisma University - TRACS Site Visit Scheduled

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Nov 1, 2022.

  1. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    Over at the now defunct degree discussion forum, only one poster explicitly called Charisma a degree mill. The rest of us were sued for asking questions.
    Johann likes this.
  2. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    On degreediscussion, the owner/founder of Charisma University (or poster 'world traveler', who was not the owner) argued, among other things, that Charisma's candidacy status with ACBSP, ASIC accreditation and American Council on Education membership meant that Charisma had "the equivalent of regional accreditation in the US".
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
    Johann likes this.
  3. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    I think it was rather a case of hurt feelings.
    Johann likes this.
  4. mbwa shenzi

    mbwa shenzi Active Member

    Five of us, I believe. Dr Douglas informed me that I was later dropped from the lawsuit. My guess is that it was because charismatic poster 'surprises' had suggested that I was a member of Boko Haram.
    Dustin, TEKMAN and Johann like this.
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I missed that at the time, but just laughed out loud at the suggestion! :D
    Dustin likes this.
  6. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Candidacy is not accreditation, and regional accreditation would be more significant than national accreditation.
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    (1) I'm fully awake, here. I said "if TRACS accredits the school - and I can see that happening." I know the diff. between candidacy and accreditation. Don't need the lecture, retort or whatever it is.

    (2) It is recognized US accreditation. That is something the school has not had to date. That indeed would be a major accomplishment for them. The major accomplishment, I think. I think I'll stick with what I said.

    (3) I know the difference between National and Regional Accreditation. But USDoE now says it's ALL National - whether I like it or not - or whether you do. So - the most significant difference, as I see it - having recognized accreditation .... or not.

    The atmosphere around here is VERY VERY um... competitive at times. Like a track meet or a college football game. Or the oldest, most notorious college game of all - "grasping at straws." I have to go lie down, now.... :(
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
  8. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You expressed your opinion, and she expressed hers.

    When many RA schools still do not recognize NA schools, it's hardly controversial to maintain that RA is more significant than NA regardless of what ED policymakers say.
    Rachel83az, Dustin, JBjunior and 2 others like this.
  9. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    You responded to me, and I was talking about candidacy. USDE does not dictate how colleges, employers, and licensing boards view the various forms of accreditation. As of right now, many regionally accredited institutions still discriminate against national accreditation. Many organizations also take their cues from CHEA, and CHEA still distinguishes between the two. USDE cannot force an institution to accept national accreditation.

    Note: You have gotten snippy with me multiple times for no reason, so don't act innocent. Should I point out one of your recent, grumpy responses?
    JBjunior likes this.
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And now you've expressed yours. Fair game.
    No need. You won't be troubled with any more responses from me.
  11. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Michael Burgos and Johann like this.
  12. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Haha. To go to that extent. But I knew some schools would do this. There are others that only use the term "institutionally accredited", and I'm sure a number of those have the same position as the quoted school, they just don't say it publicly. At least for the school in the quote, they're being the most honest by being upfront about their educational discrimination.
    Johann likes this.
  13. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Discrimination isn't always bad. For instance, most police departments will discriminate against non-citizens since they will only hire U.S. citizens.
    Michael Burgos likes this.
  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    See, that's what I don't like, because I prefer my cops to be ruthless kick-butts ready for combat. The kind you can only get from countries where that's necessary for survival. On the other hand, there is the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department and others, so maybe we already have enough of those guys homegrown...
  15. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    That's why foreign citizens who are permanent residents can serve in the armed forces. So, yea... combat-ready.

    Sadly, the ones born here only know how to resort to firearm. Without firearms, they are p......
    LearningAddict likes this.
  16. mintaru

    mintaru Active Member

    This has become a very long text. Sorry for that. I'm trying to explain the German accreditation system here, and since that system is very complex, I couldn't make it shorter.

    ACQUIN is a German accreditation agency recognized by the German authorities. In order to answer your question, one would have to find out what the German equivalent of regional accreditation is.

    Unfortunately, the answer to this question is a lot more difficult than expected. The German accreditation system is about as complex as the American one, but it is structured very differently in many respects. It starts with the fact that German accreditation is not voluntary. It is mandatory for German schools.

    Even the designations university (Universität) and university of applied sciences (Fachhochschule) can only be used by a school if it is accredited - or if that school is a public school. If an unaccredited school calls itself a university, that's a crime.

    A public school is established by an act of parliament. However, in Germany, as in the USA, education is a state matter. So that parliament is not the federal parliament but the parliament of the respective German state. There is a so-called Hochschulgesetz (university law) in all German federal states. This law regulates many things related to higher education in the state, and that includes which public universities there are and how private universities are recognised.

    So how does the recognition of private universities work?
    A newly founded private university initially receives temporary recognition from the Ministry of Education of the respective state. In order for this recognition to be converted into a regular recognition, the university must be accredited by the German Science Council by a certain date at the latest. The accreditation by the Science Council is a kind of institutional accreditation, but it is not comparable to American regional accreditation.

    Here is why: Up to this point, a private or public university may call itself a university or a university of applied sciences and it may also award ECTS points, offer courses or certificates, but it may not award any degrees.

    In order for a German private or public school to be able to award degrees, it also needs accreditation from one of the accreditation agencies accredited by the German Accreditation Council. (Yes, the recognition of an accreditation agency in Germany is also referred to as accreditation.)

    The following accreditation agencies are currently recognized/accredited in Germany:

    1. ACQUIN – Accreditation, Certification and Quality Assurance Institute
    2. AHPGS - Accreditation agency for courses in curative education, nursing, health and social work e.V.
    3. AKAST – Agency for Quality Assurance and Accreditation of Canonical Courses
    4. AQ Austria - Agency for Quality Assurance and Accreditation Austria[4]
    5. AQAS - agency for quality assurance through the accreditation of courses
    6. ASIIN – Accreditation Agency for Degrees in Engineering, Computer Science, Natural Sciences and Mathematics
    7.evalag – evaluation agency Baden-Württemberg
    8. FIBAA – Foundation for International Business Administration Accreditation
    9. AAQ - Agency for Accreditation and Quality Assurance of Swiss Universities
    10. ZEvA - Central Evaluation and Accreditation Agency Hanover​

    As you can see from the names, agencies number 4 and 9 are not German agencies but are from Austria and Switzerland. They still have the same status as the other agencies.

    These recognized agencies offer two different types of accreditation. (However, not every agency offers both types.)

    1. Program accreditation (similar to program accreditation in the US)
    2. The so-called system accreditation, a kind of institutional accreditation​

    A school needs one of these two types of accreditation in order to be able to award academic degrees.

    Program accreditation is easy to explain, since there are hardly any differences to the situation in the usa. The only real difference is that each and every new course has to be provisionally approved by the relevant Ministry of Education until it receives accreditation from one of the agencies.
    Since every course of study in Germany has to be accredited, this is of course a very large bureaucratic effort.

    For this reason, a second type of accreditation was introduced, system accreditation. As already mentioned, system accreditation is a type of institutional accreditation, but there is a difference to institutional accreditation in the USA.

    The degree courses of a university with program accreditation and those of a university with system accreditation have absolutely the same legal (and academic) status. This means no matter what type of accreditation a degree program has, every accredited degree program is treated the same. Incidentally, this also applies to the individual accreditation agencies. For example, ASIIN is not the only agency that accredits engineering courses. If someone with a Bachelor of Engineering degree with ZEvA accreditation applies to a school with ASIIN accreditation for a master's course, then this school may not reject him or her solely on the basis of the accreditation of the bachelor's degree.

    In the US, on the other hand, something comparable would be nothing special. It happens frequently.

    This is also the reason why Anabin does not recognize some US degrees. The best example are US MBAs without ACCSB accreditation. Anabin interprets the fact that US schools with ACCSB accreditation do often not recognize MBAs from schools without the same accreditation as if only business schools with ACCSB accreditation are truly recognized schools. That would be correct within the German system. Whether it makes sense to apply this rule when recognizing US degrees is perhaps another question.

    But now finally back to the original question: What is the German equivalent to institutional accreditation in the US?

    The equivalent is actually two things:
    1.1. If it is a public university: Establishment of the school through an article in the university law of the respective federal state.​


    1.2. If it is a private university: Recognition by the Ministry of Education of the respective federal state and accreditation by the German Science Council.​


    2.1. Program accreditation of the respective course by one of the agencies recognized by the Accreditation Council.​


    2.2. System accreditation of the school by one of the agencies recognized by the Accreditation Council.​

    Charisma University has ACQUIN system accreditation, but the German Science Council does not accredit schools outside of Germany. ACQUIN obviously believes the type of recognition Charisma University has in the Turks and Caicos Islands is equivalent to recognition by the Ministry of Education of a German state. I have no idea if credential evaluation agencies would agree.
    Garp, LearningAddict and Johann like this.
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Great explanation -- all of it. Very good info to have. Thanks!
    Garp likes this.
  18. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Wow. That was an excellent post!

    I do think the American system is pretty straight-forward compared to many others though. Here, you're either accredited by one of the recognized institutional accreditation agencies, or you're not. Going deeper into the new "institutional accreditation" language will only make it even simpler.

    One of things that makes it harder to understand the ways other countries go about this, is that in a number of places "accreditation" doesn't mean accreditation in the sense that we understand it. Some places have accreditors that only do quality assurance, so it's misleading (unintentionally) to people in the American system, because even when they look it up they'll not realize that the accreditor is not an institutional accreditor but a quality assurance body. I was confused by that several times myself.
  19. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    It's nice to see that people who disagreed with me posted proof or agreed with proof that my factual statements are correct. I don't know why one sentence of facts would make people emotional.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2022
  20. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Very thorough. Thanks!

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