Certificate in Theology, etc.

Exactly. Steve has some good points but also some gaps in his reasoning. You have to balance many factors. Steve's PhD is from UIU which is fine but many arguments could be made in regard to general perceptions (etc) when compared to residential PhD programs. DL programs in general are *probably* not going to be as well received in academia for instance as residential. Using Steve's logic should he have found a more expensive & less convenient residential PhD program in order to earn a degree with maximum credibility and respect. UIU may not be Fuller or DTS (were his field available from those institutions) but it met his needs. The same could be said for Excelsior, etc. To me who went through a traditonal residential undergraduate program I do not look postively on schools with the big three methodology. Nonetheless, it is an accredited degree with utility.

You need to balance factors such as convenience, cost, and utility. I would always stick with GAAP of some sort. If SATS is acceptable because of its status to wherever you intend to use and it meets your other critieria then fine. No you were not in residence but then to be frank people are not necessarily amused (if you are a residential program snob) with compeltely DL programs or 35 day residency programs (UIU). I remember reading a sarcastic article about University of Sarasota stating you could earn a degree with as little as 30 days on campus. Obviously it was skewed to be sarcastic. So those few residence days may not amuse someone either and they could call it a correspondence EdD (in spite of Steve's assertion that you could then say you visited there).

I am doing a 60 credit hour TRACS (US DOE/CHEA recognized)accredited doctorate. It is an accredited program that I am enjoying. Would I rather have a Fuller doctorate............sure but I cannot financially or residentially swing that. I am aware of limitations and comfortable with it.

You have to make similar choices. So, if a Foreign program will meet your needs various needs & requirements then go for it. Heck, someone posted here an example in Canada of a young Seminary President with a UNISA doctorate in theology. I do not believe he was in residence based on his other degrees.

North

 

I do have one thing going for me. When people ask me about my degree, if it'd SATS, I can honestly say that I went to four years of college here in the States and transfered those credits and finished my degree through DL. This is true, SATS will accept my credits to a point and so I will truely be finishing my degree instead of starting from scratch. So I already have four years of residency

drewdarnell, You could consider taking a few classes locally, then transfering to SATS, or take some from the Extension Seminary then transfer to SATS. If you can or already have any residence in a college, then you can say so if asked. This may relieve much of the "stigma" of a degree through DL or from SA. God bless ya Bro.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: A few brief comments . . .

My total expenses for the Spurgeon's MTh (including tuition and airfare, but excluding books) came to about $5,000. The weeks I spent in London provided an invaluable opportunity to become integrated into a Christian community of peers whose friendships have enriched my life, and whose perspectives have expanded my horizons significantly. Without question, my most significant learning did not take place at those times. However, I will never be the same as a result of those few weeks. In addition, my relationship to my supervisor, which can hardly be characterized as hand-holding, was deepened and solidified through those times. We now share a depth of mutual understanding that has enhanced our working relationship.

I look forward to similar benefits flowing out of my travels to Stellenbosch.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few brief comments . . .

i) Good luck to you Cory.

ii) I should not speak for Bill, but I do not think he meant to be negative about your experience at Spurgeon or the value you felt to your residency/trip. I think he was rather responding to Steve's rather blanket assertations which have some validity in terms of being able to say you set foot in a place and the experience of interaction. However, these same assertions carried to the logical conclusions are how some academics assert that DL cannot be as good as resident programs. Others would argue that most of what a scholar does in pursuit of the PhD is independent study. Steve somewhat tailored his remarks to fit and bolster his own case as a benchmark for programatic judgement.

Your pursuit of a doctorate at Stellenbosch sounds great. Quality program. Viel Gluck!

North

 

North,

Thanks for your input. I wasn't offended by Bill's comments. However, as the lead apologist of Spurgeon's College on this forum, I feel it is my duty to uphold a realistic picture of the Spurgeon's experience. If one is going to focus upon Spurgeon's in the use of overstatement for the purposes of argument, it is understandably my preference that this overstatement not depart too dramatically from reality. Besides, any good British grad student will prefer the use of understatement rather than overstatement any day.

On an entirely separate note, I think that the issue of residency is of less concern for individuals who are already integrated into the academic community: for example, John Sanders at Huntington College or the guy who has assumed the presidency at Associated Canadian Theological Seminaries in British Columbia. These two had already established their reputations within the academic community prior to earning their UNISA doctorates. For them, a doctorate from UNISA was not the foundation of their claims to academic credibility, but rather the capstone to strong reputations which they had already built through publication and teaching. One further note on this: among the individuals possessing doctorates earned on a non-resident or limited residency basis from overseas institutions who now are teaching in reputable seminaries around the US and Canada, I would venture with considerable confidence to estimate that at least 80% of them possess at least one degree from the institution at which they presently are teaching. What does this signal? These were outstanding students who likely were pegged as promising contributors to the academic community before they enrolled in a doctoral program.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few brief comments . . .

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Cory

I am sorry if I offended you or misrepresented your experience. The hand holding remark slipped out and was not called for. I apologise for it!!



(1) Steve said that one might be required to take four trips to England to do a Spurgeon masters and spend up to four weeks, there, one week per trip. You did not qualify his statement by asserting any difference in your actual experience as by saying, "Well no, I took only one trip", or " only two trips." I supposed there would be expenses while there as well as food and lodging. My assumption was that this could not all be done: four plane fares, 28 night's lodging , tuition for under $10,000. You say only $5000 for all save books, so I was wrong. Sorry.

(2)You say you gained strong friendships while there. Friendships are wonderful things. I'm sure that one can be much changed by those relationships made even when they constitute a personal contact of only a few days. As to the relation of acquired friendships to learning, I suppose there could be one, but I would not really wish to pay for that as part of my program. At the master's level I could find locals to chat with without flying to England. If I deemed such personal contact essential, and much valued it, then I would not wish go with DL learning at all. I would go classroom only. My statement here surprises me as I really don't have a "theological" friend to discuss issues with ,and I think I'd enjoy that. Our pastor doesn't know what I'm talking about when I say "attributes inhere in essence consequently relational subordination cannot be essential as Berkoff claims" or "were the kenosis but a continuation of the pretemporal subordinate characteristics of the second hypostasis as Dahms requires , then the incarnational life of Jesus could not have been decreed.' (heh, heh). Pastor doesn't often preach on these!! But I don't want to pay to fly to England to converse on trinal relationships with peers. Yet somehow I deem Aquinas and Augustine and Hodge and Erickson and their ilk my close friends. Besides, they don't talk back when I point out their occasional errors! I guess I'm just a recluse and a conceited one at that, so I see not the aggregate value there might be in spending a few weeks abroad with school chums for friendship as others might. That's just me, I guess. Again, sorry.

(3) I did relish my time, though, on the Western campus. I had been "away" from the Lord for 12 years and being accepted there was a sign to me of His grace and forgiveness! I would never deny that undergrad or even masters level could not benefit by residency. But I much question, Steve and Cory, that a genuine residency=28 days! I commuted to Western too as you did to Spurgeon..but I drove only 45 miles. I suppose in my MDiv/ThM studies I spent cumulatively around 180 weeks on campus "in residency." My other work was all residency too. So I have experienced muchon campus time and know a lot about it. Also I've taught public school for 35 years so know something about the value of having students and teachers facing each other in close proximity in dialogue over weeks and months. I just don't see how 28 days constitute a residency by any stretch of reason. Steve's point , however, Cory, was that it did and that it was, in fact, those few days spent on the Spurgeon campus that gave more credibilty to a Spurgeon program over the one we wazoos "at' Unizul possess. I don't see it that way, I think that is rubbish, sorry again.

(4) As you say, your time in England was not your major learning experience. I'm sure glad you said that as it would make all the time away from England studying then pale in efficiency. Again, I apologize for the "hand holding" remark. But as you at Spurgeon were in a masters, I could see more advantage in that context to "residency". In a doctoral program by thesis only it seems to me that the residency virtue is diminished. The Super guides, through evaluation of submitted chapters indeed, but its mostly up to the student. And it seems to be that the supervision I am getting by email and my submissions covered with remarks returned by fax and my occasional telephonic contacts are very sufficient and appropriateto my needs. To argue that one must visit annually ,or whatever, with a super would suggest that my own program by contrast of not doing that is deficient. And I disagree with that appraisal. Admittedly, I'm not yet done with the thesis, but, my topic is trinal relations as qualified from the evangelical perspective and if anyone( PhD, Professor, author, whoever) thinks my work on this is deficient then I would like that one to step up and have those long theological conversations with me providing his proof! But, if my work is satisfactory, then the requisite for residency as a condition of quality seems unsupported. So I disagree that one needs any residency at all--unless something goes bad, perhaps-- in thesis only doctoral work. Sorry.

Again, I mean no offense.

 

Bill,

Seriously--no offense taken. My post was meant exclusively to provide reflection and clarification. By the way, my MTh required three trips. Fortunately, however, I was residing on the East coast during the period of time in which I was fulfilling these residency requirements. Airfare to London from that part of the country was quite reasonable at the time. Unfortunately, air travel to Stellenbosch will be considerably more expensive--it seems as though I should expect to pay approximately $1,500 per trip. However, I have the advantage of paying only $1,500 a year in tuition to a world-class theology faculty.

Blessings!

 

Cory

You are gracious to a cantankerous old man, thanks for that, and for the clarifications!

 

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Perhaps it also might signal both that hiring is frequently based on personal contacts and on theological affinity with a school's belief statement and that both conditions might achieved or evinced by one formerly being in attendance as a student at the hiring school!