Cape Town Baptist Seminary

Very well put, Cory.

Dave

 

Cory

I believe what you say is basically true. Still I think a lot of factors enter into the hiring as connections and publishing. Too bad it's not based much on the dissertation.

I'm very glad that I do not have such worries. My problem is that I cannot decide whether to accept Westminster, Fuller's, or Dallas' offer of a full professorship upon my graduation. Which do you think I should take

 

Bill,

I agree completely that one's viability as a candidate for a faculty position will be judged on the basis of a constellation of factors. Furthermore, I agree that publication record and connections are two very crucial factors that must be considered alongside one's academic background. However, one will need a pretty kick-butt publication record and well-established network to compensate for weak academic credentials. John Sanders, for example, has done well with his UNISA DTh (which, while not weak in our eyes, is hardly deemed on equal footing with other credentials by the movers and shakers of the theological academic community). However, prior to undertaking this degree, he had years of successful experience teaching at Oak Hills Bible College, a very significant publication record (most of which I don't agree with in the least bit, but still significant none-the-less), and strong ties to some major figures of the evangelical left. A few similar examples could be cited.

Bill, with the kind of credibility that causes you to be pursued by three major evangelical institutions, I say forget all of them--capitalize upon your obvious appeal and open your own seminary. I'd call it Dallerminster.

 

Absolutely agree Cory!

A DTS grad competing against someone for a faculty postion against someone from certain other PhD granting ATS institutions is going to be far ahead. Just a fact of life. Same may be said for a possible preference for US degrees among academic institutions when the applicant is a resident of the US (ie did the degree by DL). In life there is a pecking order. Academic reputation is important, residential vs DL can be seen as important. It all boils down to weighing what you want to do with the degree vs cost, convenience, etc.

As an aside there are certainly exceptions. Dr. Stephen Olford has a LRS doctorate and yet has had a chair named after him at Beeson. I suppose reputation exceeded alma mater.

Good observations Cory & right on.

North

North

 

Cory

I know you keep up on these things. Do you have any idea what percentage of the tenured faculty in evangelical USA seminaries have docs from South Africa ?

 

Here's a start, Bill

Vern Sheridan Poythress, Professor of New Testament Interpretation, Westminster Theological Seminary
B.S., California Institute of Technology; Ph.D., Harvard University; M.Div., Th.M., Westminster Theological Seminary; M.Litt., University of Cambridge; D.Th., University of Stellenbosch

Edward Hindson, Dean of Liberty University Institute of Biblical Studies
B.A., William Tyndale College; M.A., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School; Th.M., Grace Theological Seminary; Th.D., Trinity Graduate School; D.Min., Westminster Theological Seminary; D.Phil., University of South Africa

Dorothy Kelley Patterson, Professor of Women’s Studies, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
B.A., Hardin-Simmons University Th.M., New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary; D.Min., Luther Rice Theological Seminary; D. Theol., University of South Africa.

Keith E. Eitel, Professor of Christian Missions, Southeastern College at Wake Forest
B.A., Dallas Baptist University; M.A., Baylor University; D.Miss., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School; D.Theol., University of South Africa

Ned L. Mathews, Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries, Southeastern College at Wake Forest
B.A., East Tennessee State University; M. Div., Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.M. and D. Theol., University of South Africa

Charles Fensham, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology, University of Toronto
B.Th. University of South Africa; B.Th. Hon. University of South Africa; M.Th. University of South Africa; M.Th. Waterloo Lutheran Seminary; Th.D. University of South Africa

Wayne P. Smith, Professor Of Theology, Nazarene Bible College
B.A., Wesleyan Evangelical Seminary; M.A., Indiana Wesleyan University,; M.Th., University of South Africa

 

Re: Here's a start, Bill

Wife of former Southern Bapist Convention prez Dr. Paige Patterson.

North

 

Re: Here's a start, Bill

===

Thanks Dave(you sure type fast)

Well I hope there are lots and lots more. I don't know how many evangelical schools there are in the USA..100? 200? 300? If there were 300 X (say) 15 theo(eg NT,OT,ST,PT etc) profs per school that would be ...ummm...well a lot! But, if only 6 had docs from SA then one might wonder about one's chances to get hired on the basis of a SA doc given that tiny % when facing the competion with USA docs as TEDS,DTS,Westminster, Fuller and the like.

In fact for fun I perused the last edition of the ETS Journal wherein 70 were looking for work and listing their docs. Of these docs 4 were from the UK schools, one from another European school, 64 from USA schools and i from Puche.

HMMM...I should have stuck with Trinity, at least it is in the USA

 

At US evangelical institutions alone, I am aware of 22 UNISA grads, 2 Natal grads, and 3 Stellenbosch grads. The numbers for Stellenbosch and UNISA go up if Canadian schools are also considered. In the US, the UNISA alumni appear largely to be people who undertook their doctoral work while already in an academic post.

The Natal grads include one native South African and one Fuller Seminary professor who already held his post prior to enrolling in doctoral work.

Stellenbosch seems to have the strongest US placement record of any South African school. Its alumni include Vern Poythress at Westminster and Jim Stamoolis, former executive director of the World Evangelical Fellowship (and professor at NBTS in Lombard, IL). Other alumni include Robert I. Vasholz, Professor of Old Testament at Covenant Seminary and Jaco Hamman, who completed the B.Th. and M.Th.,at Stellenbosch prior to completing his Ph.D. at Princeton Theological Seminary. I’ve crossed paths with others from time to time, most of whom seem to have earned their Stellenbosch doctorates while serving on the mission field in South Africa.


It would be hard to truly compare the placement of South African degree holders over against their American-degreed counterparts, because there certainly are only a small number of the former seeking academic posts here in the States.

 

There is a school just out of Evansville, Indiana, which would do well to have you on faculty, Bill. Would you consider it?

 

I know Cory's point that the grad of the more respected school has, other considerations being equal, the better chance of deriving economic benefit, in terms of getting a salaried position, and has the better chance of garnering the respect of those in academe. Those with such ambitions should pay heed.

I feel fortunate not to be motivated by such luring as I'm an old duffer now on two pensions so not intending to hoof it around at graduation in search of a position. As for garnering respect, aside from basically doing my work in an honest, ie, "accredited" way,I would like what I do to be respected for what it is, not for the school in which I did. If it cannot be, "oh well."

And of course besides all of this I am pigheaded enough to mainly want to please myself, well maybe ONE other, not potential future employers, and to want to do a dissertation that is sound by the measure of Scripture and true to theological grad level research whether it ingratiates me to others or not. Of course these goals can be done in the better recognised school too, my point is such goals do not demand they be done there.

Again, I admit the grad of a school much respected would have the better chance to make a living off of his academic experiences, other things being equal. And this was Cory's point. But that is not my ambition. Were it my ambition, my chances, it seems, would be better in an American school theologically matched to the credo of those schools in which I aspired to teach. My hunch is in many US evangelical schools the first question is "what do you believe?" not "who was your supervisor?"

 

To the first point here, I would say that you probably are right. Something similar would ring true with regard to foreign institutions, as well. For example, if you were to examine the faculties of ELCA and Missouri Synod seminaries, you would find a higher proportion of faculty members with degrees from Scandinavian (e.g., Lund) and German institutions than you would at seminaries of other confessional persuasions. Similarly, at Reformed institutions, you will encounter a higher proportion of individuals with degrees from Free University, Amsterdam and Leiden. In addition, you'll find that most of the graduates of the Dutch Reformed South African programs presently teaching in North America, quite understandably, appear at Reformed institutions. So, you are making a good point that relates to foreign schools as well. I would argue that, if one chooses the right foreign school, his "marketability" will not be hindered.

To the second point, I would say that, to many evangelicals, the questions of "what you believe" and "where and with whom you studied" are not mutually exclusive. Some academic administrators at conservative seminaries are attentive to, and concerned about, the way in which one's theological development has been impacted by the environments and relationships through which he received his academic preparation. For those who studied in the European system, the individual under whose supervision one studied will be something of a focal point to this issue. Many individuals have gone to a given insitution for the expressed purpose of studying under a specific individual. If that professor is known and recognized, the student will be judged at some level by virtue of his affinity to what the professor represents. Of course, students are not defined entirely by the views of their professors. At the same time, within the evangelical community, having to "overcome" the reputation of one's doctoral supervisor is not exactly an asset. Furthermore, some evangelical seminaries are sensitized to the impact that having graduates of a particular institution will have upon their own reputation. Many of the more conservative seminaries attribute a perceived decline in evangelical theology in part to the influx of professors trained at liberal European faculties. Thus, the question of one's supervisor is deemed highly relevant.

Furthermore, in the hiring process, the question of "what you believe" is not likely to be a primary question. Many questions will first be asked by the hiring institution, questioned that one's C.V. will be expected to answer. Those candidates who find themselves in the circular file will not likely be provided opportunity to vouch for what they believe.

At the end of the day, Bill, I share your conviction that pleasing the Lord and seeking to be good students of His truth should be our primary motivation. However, as a 29-year-old looking ahead at a lifetime of potential service, I also desire to be a good steward of the potential with which the Lord has invested my life by seeking the best and most credible education that I can. Really, this is not motivated by any sort of "lure" or concern with economic benefit. Simply stated, not a day goes by that I don't dream of teaching in a Christian college. I have a passion for impacting the lives of students preparing for ministry. Truthfully, I'll never get rich doing that, and may even have to take a pay cut from the salary I enjoy as a pastor. However, I know that that is God's call on my life. The prospect of being afforded that opportunity fills me with joy. In desiring to go to a more reputable institution, I'm less concerned personally with marketability than with entrusting my potential to a school with a recognized reputation for helping individuals to become all that they can be as Christian academics. I know that this is the life work to which my Lord has called me, so I want to strive toward my fullest potential for His glory!

 

SATS MTh and U of Pretoria

Do you folks think a SATS MTh would be excepted to get into a U of Pretoria, or Unisua, etc., DTh (or PHD).

 

Re: SATS MTh and U of Pretoria

This is a very interesting question. It seems very possible in light of SATS's accredited status. However, I just don't have any sense of how SATS is being perceived and received within the South African community. The best I could recommend to you would be to contact a few representative South African theology faculties and ask this very question.

I've been doing a little internet searching to try to gain some clues about how SATS's reputation is developing within the South African community. However, there is simply nothing to be found. I'd be interested to hear about anything you might learn in this regard.

Blessings!

 

Why not ask the folks at SATS about the postgrad track record? Or ask the universities that interest you directly. My guess-answer to your question is yes, but I think you could get a real answer from the appropriate university faculties and/or from SATS. If a school won't or can't answer your legitimate questions, that should answer all your questions.

 

Good suggestion!

 

I would be careful about this. A Unizul-validated degree might be treated differently from a SATS-only degree.

I think the second option is better. Ask Pretoria and/or Unisa department heads whether SATS MTh would be acceptable.

 

Excellent Idea. I would do both options to be thorough. Please either post your findings or send me a PM. Since I'm a SATS student this is something I'm interested in hearing!


Blessings,



Kevin